Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | MJH | 153604 | ||
Thank you for jumping in… I do understand the importance of approaching a scripture both in the immediate context and in the context of the whole of scripture. I also believe that one should attemp as best as one can to understand what the original author meant when he wrote. To do this, an historical understanding is important. Paul was writing to a certain people at a certain time who had a certain religion, and he had a particular message he wanted to communicate to them. If we understand their world we better understand the letter. Also, Paul was a Pharisee, raised as a Jew in the capital of the Jewish religious world, and trained by the eminent Jewish Rabbi of the time (Gamaliel grandson of Hillel). Also, neither Paul nor any of the first Jewish Believers renounced Judaism, but rather remained Jews and practiced their Jewish faith, and remained observant to the Torah (or Law of Moses). So what the first century Jewish thought about the End Times, does make at least some difference in how we understand Paul's writings. Paul differed with Judaism in one way, that being how the LORD relates to Gentiles. (He also differed from non-believing Jews on the Person of the Messiah--obviously.) Also, the whole of scripture only shows one direction when it comes to people being with the Lord, and that is always the LORD coming to dwell with mankind, not the reverse. With the exception of 1 Thess 4:17, I challenge you to find scriptures that show otherwise. (Not individual's, but believers or people groups as a whole.) Since 1 Thess is the only scripture that does not fit the common pattern (unless anyone knows of another), one asks why? And the historical context -- of which the Thessalonians would be very much aware -- explains this: That being that these verses mirror the events of an Emperor entering a city or town. The trumpet would blast, the people would coming out to meet the Emperor, and they would return to the city (not Rome). My contention is that a believer in Thessalonica would have understood these verses to mean: that the Lord would return, that they would either literally, or figuratively meet Him in the air, (the dead rising first) and then return to Earth or their town to worship Him (and not worship the Emperor as would happen in the historical version.) I may very well be wrong, I have been before, but I'd like to be shown to be wrong, since I think I have a pretty good case for my position. MJH |
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2 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | jlhetrick | 153611 | ||
OK, you challenged so I reply. Here is the scripture you wanted (or thought wasn't there). Rev 11:12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here." Then they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies watched them. Also, keep in mind that the original author (the Holy Spirit through Paul) had two "Certain people" He was targeting as audience. Paul's certain people in his time and you and me and those to come after if the Lord should delay. So you left out one very important criteria for interpretation. "How does this apply to me today" But the rest of what you said there was good. You were accurate on most of your basic history regarding paul and his time but, as for Paul continuing to practice the Jewish faith, I think your way wrong on that. He did continue to observe the law but only in that it revealed his sin to him (Romans 7:7 for example). But, he did not continue to practice the Jewish faith which absolutely declared obedience to the law a requirement for righteousness and demanded circumcision, as well as the observance of a whole array of events. Gal 4:9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. Gal 4:11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain. (NASB) I'm like you and don't like to change my position unless I can be shown evidence to redirect me. I hope this helps Jeff |
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3 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | MJH | 153873 | ||
Paul the Torah observant Jew. It’s hard to post on this subject in such a short space, but I shall try. The primary place in scripture to find proof that Paul always saw himself as obedient to the Law of Moses is by reading Acts 21 – 22. (Acts 21:24,26) Here we find Paul just arriving in Jerusalem and James says there are thousands of Jewish believers in Jesus as Messiah who are all zealous for the law [of Moses] and they think Paul is not zealous for the Law and is teaching “JEWS” to ignore the Law [of Moses]. Paul sets out to PROVE to them that he is Torah observant by participating in the Nazarite Vows that some poor members of the community had taken. Paul could have “said” he was observant, but much better he can “show” it by his actions. (see post 152288 and replies for more on this) Paul always held the Torah up in high regard. The argument among the first century Jewish Christians was concerning what the Gentiles had to do. Paul again and again says the Gentiles do not need to convert to Judaism to be saved. There were two types of Gentile believers BEFORE Jesus came. 1) A “God fearer” who believed in the One true God and His word revealed in the Old Testament but who did NOT get circumcised nor follow all of the Mosaic Law. They were expected to follow the Noah Covenant (see post 150100) (which is what Acts 15 mentions as well). 2) A proselytite was a Gentile who became circumcised and became Jewish, following the whole Mosaic Law. The first group came to the temple and had to stay in the “court of the Gentiles” (which was filled with Jews trading and selling so the “God fearers” did not have anyplace to go, thus Jesus and his whip and his “house of prayer for ALL nations” quote.) The second group, the converts, could go into the Jewish sections, they were ritually clean. All this is important to understanding Paul’s view of Gentile Christians. He said they could basically be “God Fearers” who accept Jesus as the Messiah to be saved and be a complete member of the community (not divided by the dividing wall). To Paul there was no longer any difference between Jew and Gentile in the eyes of God in relation to salvation. The book of Ezekiel also predicts the wall of separation would be taken away in the days of the Messiah. Paul did not tell Jews to stop following the Law of Moses (he circumcised Timothy after all). He DID preach against legalism among Jews as did Jesus. Legalism is the idea that salvation is by following commandments (so a person following commandments is not a legalist unless he believes that his ability to do so earns him salvation.) The Old Testament NEVER teaches this idea (even if many 1st century Jewish Rabbis did.) The Old Testament is a grace based religion. God did not change. The Passover is a celebration of this grace based salvation which came before the commandments. So Paul did not require Gentiles to follow the “Law of Moses” to be saved, but he did not tell Jews to stop following the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20-21). Paul followed all of the Law according to both his and Jesus interpretation. He did not follow the law according to the interpretation of some rabbis of his time which was a legalistic or works based faith that was contrary to the Law itself. I really had to cut this short….I had an outline that was simply too long for a forum. I assume that this simple post will not be enough to make my point, but I’ll see what you think of this first. It’s a real joy to discuss…. MJH |
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4 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | Searcher56 | 153993 | ||
Are these your own words? Paul did follow the Torah but knew that and more was worthless (Phil 3:3-7). |
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5 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | MJH | 153996 | ||
Thanks for the reply. Phil 3:3-7 is a good verse to use. Paul found no righteousness of his own in following the Law, which was legalism, but he did remain observant to the Law (Torah), but it was the Messiah who brought him salvation. His attempts at salvation through the law were worthless (not the Law) Rom 7. But it was because of Jesus' faithfullness that he too could be declaired righteous. And yes, those were my words. I spent some time developing an outline of which only a part is written in the post, but I want to know if I am correct in my understanding. Thanks again for the reply. MJH |
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6 | Will there be a partial rapture? | 1 Thess 4:17 | kalos | 153998 | ||
I wonder: in what book, chapter and verse of the Bible does Paul say that either the Torah or following Torah was "worthless"? NASB 1 John 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments [Greek: entole, Strong's #1785], is a liar, and the truth is not in him; Greek: entole [Strong's #1785]: ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law) |
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