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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | gifts of Healing and Miracles for today. | 1 Cor 12:9 | humbledbyhisgrace | 187092 | ||
Greetings Van! It is an interesting subject for sure :-) It goes without saying I have to be honest :-) so let me start off with saying that although I have looked into this subject a bit I have not spent a great deal of time studying it. So, although I can't address each gift I would like to draw your attention to the first few given and get your thoughts on this. 1 Corinthians 12:28 (NASB) And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, ... Keeping in mind what you pointed out that the verse says "God has appointed in the church" consider the following regarding the church. Ephesians 2:19-20 (NASB) 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God's household, 2:20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, First point, Christ is the corner stone! Amen to that! Second point, notice verse 20 says "having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets..." So as I understand this, the foundation is made up of the apostles and prophets with Christ as the corner stone (i.e. the first "stone" set that all other stones of the foundation and the rest of the building will be set in reference to. One way of putting it :-) So as God's household (v19) is being likened to a building, being fitted together (v21) we can safely say I would think, that the foundation was laid by Christ and by the apostles and prophets. The question arises, what need is there of any more building of the foundation when the building of God's household has moved beyond the building of the foundation? Go back and look at verse 19 again along with the first part of verse 20. The Gentiles have been made a part of God's household, having been built on the foundation which has already been established as the apostles and prophets with Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone. Your thoughts? Anyone's thoughts :-) By Faith, Steve |
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2 | gifts of Healing and Miracles for today. | 1 Cor 12:9 | mark d seyler | 187167 | ||
Hi Steve, I agree with you that the Cornerstone, Jesus Christ, is set once, not to be re-set, as it were. And the foundation, the Apostles and Prophets, are established, upon which the church is being built. This is the Word of God, Christ Himself, and the Bible. But what do we do with Ephesians 4? Ephesians 4:11-13 (11) and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers, (12) unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ, (13) till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ, Here, the "perfect", "perfecting" is specified: the perfecting of the saints. Til we measure up to Christ. I don't think that has happened yet, at least, it sure doesn't seem like it to me! There is the question of how we are look at these words, prophets, those who speak God's words, and apostles, sent ones. There are the 12 Apostles, but there are also other apostles. Barnabas was an apostle (Acts 14:4), and actually, "apostle" simply means "sent one", so all who where sent were apostles. There are other less specific verses that indicate there may have been others who were considered apostles. The seventy that Jesus sent out, in Luke 10, were apostles. Jesus "apesteilen", sent them, they were "apostelos", sent ones. They are considered "temporary" apostles, having been sent for a particular purpose. And of the Prophets, Saul prophesied among the prophets (1 Samuel 10), yet his prophecies were not recorded. And many times in Scripture, we read of prophets who prophesied, but their prophecies were not recorded. So are there more prophets than those given to provide the foundation for our faith? It would seem that not all prophecies were appointed for that purpose, since we do not have a record of them. But they were still prophecies from God, still needful, still useful, still building up. I would say that 1 Cor 12 speaks of the foundation, while Eph. 4 speaks of the construction. This is my understanding anyway. Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | gifts of Healing and Miracles for today. | 1 Cor 12:9 | humbledbyhisgrace | 187199 | ||
I agree Mark, we have not attained the full measure yet! Ephesians 2:20 seems to seal it up for me on this one Mark. At least as I am able to understand it. I will agree there are debates / questions per say to what apostles and prophets might Paul be referring to. As I see it, although he might not have given names at this point, he does clearly point out that they are those in which the established foundation (apostles and prophets, Christ Himself being the chief corner stone) is being built upon. But what seems clear to me from this is the foundation has been established. I cannot find in scripture where there is any indication that the foundation requires anything other then what has already been established. You ask, “But what do we do with Ephesians 4?” I fail to see where this passage changes anything. These are the same apostles and prophets in which the foundation was established. Agreed? It should be noted, time has not nor will it change the established foundation! Will it? How is it possible to build upon that which is built to support, if there is ever to be a need to change it? The apostles and prophets that were given to the Church, those mentioned in Ephesians 2:20 in reference to the foundation and the working out of their gift in the body of Christ is still just as much in affect and edifying to the body today as it was when they walked this earth. Point being, their gift was given to establish the foundation the rest would be built upon. The gifts given to them for the Church remain with the Church to this day! This is how I understand it. This is why I do not see how Ephesians 4 changes anything. Hope I made sense? At least that’s how I see it :-) By Faith Brother, Steve |
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4 | gifts of Healing and Miracles for today. | 1 Cor 12:9 | mark d seyler | 187201 | ||
Hi Steve, I'd like to simply highlight a couple of places from chapter 4: Ephesians 4:11-13 (11) And indeed He gave some to be apostles; and some prophets; and some evangelists; and some pastors and teachers; (12) with a view to the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, (13) until we all may come to the unity of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, to a full-grown man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, He gave some to be apostles, prophets, etc, for the completing of the saints, building up of the body of Christ, UNTIL we all come to the full measure of the stature of Christ. This isn't that the apostles have a gift, they are the gift, given until we are completed. My point was that there seem to be different apostleships. Barnabas, for instance, is called an apostle, yet was not one of the 12. The apostles and prophets given then do not remain with us today, they remain with the LORD, but not here with us. Even if you say, well, this actually refers to their writings, that's not what it says, and even so, we don't have writings from all the apostles. Or all the prophets. Phillips daughters prophesied, but their prophecies were not recorded. How do you, for instance, understand Barnabas' apostleship? Love in Christ, Mark |
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5 | gifts of Healing and Miracles for today. | 1 Cor 12:9 | humbledbyhisgrace | 187215 | ||
Greetings Mark! That's a nice play on words :-) but the fact is, the gifts are given to the members of the body of Christ (Romans 12:6). Yes, we then embody the gift so to speak but the gift itself is from Christ given to men (Ephesians 4:7-8). You can call the person the gift or not, but we both know the person was no gift until the Lord God gave to him and placed him in the body where He desired. 1 Corinthians 12:18 (NASB) But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. The foundation was laid and is in fact still with us though the men which the gift was given are clearly with the Lord now. Their work was not in vain nor is there a need for it to be corrected or added to that I can find in scripture. By the grace of God and to His glory, they have glorified Him to the world even if the world continues to reject Him!!!!! You keep bringing up other apostles and prophets as if the fact we do not have in writing anything to attribute to them seems to add validity to the notion we still have apostles and prophets today (Am I understanding you correctly?) If so, How? My point is this, regardless of which ones or how many Paul is speaking of, I am not basing my understanding on who per say they were, but rather on what appears to me to be the clear text of scripture in Ephesians 2:19-20 and it was those apostles and prophets that are of the foundation spoken of here... Quick question, I don't know myself and I'm just asking. Do you find any significance in Revelation 21:14 to this discussion? God bless my brother, Steve |
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6 | gifts of Healing and Miracles for today. | 1 Cor 12:9 | mark d seyler | 187282 | ||
Hi Steve, It is the Scripture that calls these people a gift, I am merely quoting it. Naturally it is the LORD giving that makes such a one a gift. Nowhere do I say that the foundation is not laid, or that there needs to be a correction to it. I merely point out that the Scripture says God gives us such people to build us up until we are perfected. As far as Revelation 21:14, that there are 12 foundations of the city, named for the 12 apostles, by implication may reinforce the idea that the 12 apostles are the foundation Eph 2 is speaking of. The reason I bring up others, such as Barnabas, who is called an apostle, is exemplified in this. I am thinking that Barnabas is not named on a foundation of the New Jerusalem. What do you think about that? Love in Christ, Mark |
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