Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | explain the doctrine of predistination | Rom 9:13 | DocTrinsograce | 165016 | ||
Dear Tim, You wrote, "...there are those who have created an unBiblical doctrine that denies that God wants to save all." I've never run across this in any kind of formal fashion, although I've seen something similarly said by those who do not understand the orthodox doctrine of election. I'd be curious to know if you've actually seen this belief stated in any of the creeds and confessions of the last 500 years. If so, would you point me to the source? In Him, Doc |
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2 | explain the doctrine of predistination | Rom 9:13 | Morant61 | 165025 | ||
Greetings Doc! ""Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." Source: Institutes, Book III, Chapter XXI, section 5. "By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels (Mat_25:41; 1Ti_5:21) are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death " Source: Westminister Confession (3:3) It would be self evident that if God chooses the eternal destiny of each person, and each person is not saved, that He does not want to save all men. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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3 | explain the doctrine of predistination | Rom 9:13 | DocTrinsograce | 165045 | ||
Dear Tim, Ah... the "self evident" argument! ;-) I was afraid you might have be erroneously implying that such was a doctrine of the Reformers. I have a familiarity and intimacy with the theology of Calvin which permits me to speak with some specificity on the subject. Consequently, I hope you won't think me presumptuous to instruct you so that you might more correctly represent that thinking in the future. Calvinism acknowledges the antinomy of both doctrines: God's will that all men be saved and the unconditional election of some men. Both doctrines are Scriptural. Whereas some have erred on the side of denying one doctrine over the other, Calvinism is left with the unenviable task or reconciling them. Consequently, excepting both doctrines leaves us with the implication that there are two kinds of "wills" or "two ways of willing". (This certainly wouldn't be entirely alien to the human experience.) If you spend some time digging a little deeper you will find much early church deliberation on this topic, and a revival of interest in it from the time of the Reformation. Augustine, for example, spoke of the voluntas signi (will of sign) and voluntas beneplaciti (will of good pleasure). Since then, there are other phrases used: "the efficient will and the permissive will," "the secret will and the revealed will," "the will of decree and the will of command," "decretive will and preceptive will," "sovereign will and moral will." Most well-read Arminians are aware of these discussions. Did you -- or was it someone else -- cite Clark Pinnok recently? He is highly critical of this perspective. But such criticism is hardly new. Jonathan Edwards wrote, "The Arminians ridicule the distinction between the secret and revealed will of God, or, more properly expressed, the distinction between the decree and the law of God; because we say He may decree one thing, and command another. And so, they argue, we hold a contrariety in God, as if one will of His contradicted another." However, the Arminians do not universally disagree. Howard Marshall wrote, "To avoid all misconceptions it should be made clear at the outset that the fact that God wishes or wills that all people should be saved does not necessarily imply that all will respond to the gospel and be saved. We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what He actually does will to happen, and both of these things can be spoken of as God's will." There's a lot that could be said on this topic. It is not my aim to defend it or to fully define it. I simply wanted to correct the misrepresentation of John Calvin and the divines who wrote the Westminster Confession. Thank you for the opportunity. :-) In Him, Doc |
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4 | explain the doctrine of predistination | Rom 9:13 | Morant61 | 165048 | ||
Greetings Doc! I am not sure which part of the quotes I cited that I misunderstood. Didn't they both say that God chooses the enternal destinies of each person? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | explain the doctrine of predistination | Rom 9:13 | DocTrinsograce | 165060 | ||
Dear Tim, Perhaps it would be helpful to find quotes that are actually pertinent to the question at hand, instead of quoting on different topics and declaring your own personal conclusions about what people believe. "Therefore, seeing it is the will of God that all men should be partakers of that salvation which He hath sent in the person of His only begotten Son, we must endeavor to draw poor, silly, ignorant creatures to us, that we may all come together to this inheritance of the kingdom of heaven, which hath been promised us." --John Calvin "In the gospel God declares His love for the world and His desire that all men should be saved; reveals fully and clearly the only way of salvation; promises eternal life to all who truly repent and believe in Christ; invites and commands all to embrace the offered mercy; and by His Spirit accompanying the Word pleads with men to accept His gracious invitation." --Westminster Confession of Faith (PCUS 10.2) In Him, Doc |
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6 | explain the doctrine of predistination | Rom 9:13 | Morant61 | 165086 | ||
Greetings Doc! Since you accused me of mis-representing the quotes I cited, could you first respond to my question. Which part of the quotes did I not understand correctly? Then we can apply those original quotes to your new ones. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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7 | explain the doctrine of predistination | Rom 9:13 | DocTrinsograce | 165101 | ||
Dear Brother Tim, Why bother? It would accomplish nothing but get us into endless debate, to no one's benefit, on a topic that puts us on thin ice with a lot of people anyway. Email me personally if you would like a more thorough explanation of theology of two wills. In the mean time, you have learned, I trust, that saying "there are those who have created an unBiblical doctrine that denies that God wants to save all" about John Calvin and the Presbyterians is a misrepresentation. In the spirit of being amicable, lets try to at least get things right about what people believe, for pity sake. In Him, Doc |
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