Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Show me scripture that says we can sin | Acts 15:11 | romans5n1 | 143318 | ||
In principle, you are right. A true child of God will desire to obey their heavenly Father. However, a true Christian can be out of fellowship with God, in which case, they may "look for limits or boundaries." It is the Spirit which drives us to obey God, but the Spirit can be quenched (not lost, but silenced) due to unrepentant sin (i.e. out of fellowship with God). This is of course a tragic situation, and we as Christians should seek to help those in this sort of situation find their way back. Nevertheless, they've not lost their salvation, and to say they must not even be a Christian is to write them off (an action that would be very much contrary to the nature of Christ). God bless. |
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2 | Show me scripture that says we can sin | Acts 15:11 | EdB | 143342 | ||
romans5n1 You said, "However, a true Christian can be out of fellowship with God, in which case, they may "look for limits or boundaries." It is the Spirit which drives us to obey God, but the Spirit can be quenched (not lost, but silenced) due to unrepentant sin (i.e. out of fellowship with God). This is of course a tragic situation, and we as Christians should seek to help those in this sort of situation find their way back." Interesting! How do you propose to help them back more importantly what do you say to convince them they need to come back? Look at the picture you painted, they are satisfying the flesh (sin) and they have satisfied the spirit (salvation). tragically the picture you paint makes it appear they have nothing to lose and every to gain heaven and earth. Nonsense! These are exactly the people that need to be confronted and made to face the fact they either were never saved (for all you once saved always saved fans) and need to repent and get right, or in fact they have lost their salvation ( for all those that believe you can backslide) and need to get right. I maintain a person that is in willful sin either was never saved or they have lost their salvation. I really don't care which. However I do care that many people are going to be very surprised by the teaching yes can be saved and at the same time be committing willful sin. I believe we see this picture in the parable of wedding dinner. There is a guest sitting at the table but the king sees he doesn't have his proper attire on. In other words he has never washed his clothing white in the blood of Jesus. Matthew 22:11-12 (NASB) 11 "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12 and he said* to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. We (church) has made it so easy for salvation (just believe). We played down confronting the sin in our lives, repentance, producing good fruit, studying to show ourselves approved, putting away the things of this world, witnessing, service, and everything else that goes with being a servant of God. That what we have produced is a generation of people that think they are saved, they believe God and Christ exists, yet live like hell itself. If you don’t mind I think it better to tell them they need to get saved and apologize in heaven if we were wrong, than to tell them they are saved but need to change some things. In this case I fear we may never to see them in heaven to tell them we were wrong. Personally I think the blood of many are going to be on the hands of those that in any way trivializes sin in the life of a believer. That is not an accusation at you! EdB |
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3 | Show me scripture that says we can sin | Acts 15:11 | romans5n1 | 143410 | ||
I am in no way downplaying the effect of sin the believer's life. Sin is a serious thing and must be dealt with. However, the consequences of sin do no carry over into the arena of the believer's salvation. This is referred to as "Christian Freedom" in theological terms. We are free from the penalty of sin, because Christ has FULLY paid that penalty by His sacrifice on the cross. His sacrifice was "substitutionary" meaning that we committed the sin, but He paid the price. It was also "propitiatory" which is similar in meaning but looks at His sacrifce from God's perspective--meaning that God accepted the substitution. Therefore, if Christ paid for my sin, and God accepted that payment, then no more payment is needed. If I sin, and am held to the penalty of that sin, then God is proved untrue. This is why Paul reminds us in Romans 8:1-2, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." Therefore, in principle, I could sin with impunity, but such would dishonor the sacrifice that Christ made. The true reason to avoid sin is not to make it to heaven, but to honor our Father in heaven. Honestly, really think about what I am about to say. Under the old economy legalism was enforced-the "don't taste, don't touch" as Paul describes. Jesus Christ came and gave His life on the cross. For what? So that the old cold legalism could continue? Of course not, He died to establish for us a relationship with God, whereas those in the old economy, just had a religion. | ||||||
4 | Show me scripture that says we can sin | Acts 15:11 | EdB | 143411 | ||
What makes you think they were ever saved? If a person claims salvation but never repents of their sin are they saved? James 2:18-20 (NASB) 18 But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? As I said we ( the church) has made it so easy for salvation (just believe). We played down confronting the sin in our lives, repentance, producing good fruit, studying to show ourselves approved, putting away the things of this world, witnessing, service, and everything else that goes with being a servant of God. What we have produced is a generation of people that think they are saved, they believe God and Christ exists, yet live like hell itself. As James said jsut the fact you believe in Christ is not enough, even the demons believe but their not saved. In fact the demons not only believe they know for they have seen Jesus, yet they have never repented nor trusted in Him for their salvation. This is not a debate over once saved always saved it is a debate about what constitute salvation. I do not believe a truly saved person can live in willful and purposeful sin. EdB |
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5 | Show me scripture that says we can sin | Acts 15:11 | romans5n1 | 143832 | ||
I didn't say the hypothetical individual never repented. Quite the contrary, for the initial act of accepting Christ (and obtaining salvation in the first place) necessitates repentance. However, my point is that even Christians are not perfect, and we all still sin after coming to Christ (though hopefully in ever decreasing degrees). Nevertheless, it is more than possible for a Christian to fall into habitual sins through failing to take care of their relationship with God (through confession and repentance) and failing to listen to the Holy Spirit. This is definately not a good situation, but very possible. If such were to occur, the individual has not somehow lost their salvation (hence why I brought up once-saved-always-saved). Rather, their relationship with God is that which is on rocky ground. They need prayer, and hopefully concerned individuals in their life will attempt to wake them up to the reality of what they are doing. The sole point here is that we cannot look at someone in the midst of sin and judge that they must not be Christians after all. They are brothers in affliction, but BROTHERS nonetheless--fellow children of God now and forevermore. Is the question here whether it is even POSSIBLE for a Christian to commit willful and purposeful sin? If it is, the answer is an obvious "of course". Being a Christian does not equate being perfect. Is the question whether a Christian WOULD commit willful and purposeful sin? If so, the answer is ideally no, but Satan's deceptions can be subtle and powerful. It's easy to judge until you find yourself in a similar situation. Or, is the question whether an individual has forfeited salvation upon committing a willful and purposeful sin? If so, the answer is a strong "NO". The biblical testimony overwhelmingly makes clear that salvation eminates from God, is a function of his grace, and cannot be annulled. So, anyway you cut it, the point is the same. Is sin wrong? Of course. Should a Christian sin? Hopefully, not. Will a Christian sin? Definately, for we are still imperfect and will remain so until we leave this world and are made like Christ in spirit. But can the sins we commit forfeit our salvation? No, a thousand times, no. |
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6 | Show me scripture that says we can sin | Acts 15:11 | EdB | 143837 | ||
romans5n1 First none of us are able to judge if a person is saved or not. We can judge that they are committing sin or not, but the status of their salvation is between them and God. I do agree we have to be careful we don't fall into habitual sin, using unbecoming language, entertaining lust by reading or watching the wrong things, taking part or entertaining ideas that will lead us into sin. I agree this puts a real strain on our relationship with Christ and that we may be approaching the danger point spoken of in Hebrew 6:4-10 I do disagree on one point. I agree Christians can commit sin. A ‘spur of the moment sin’ such as using a vulgar word, or an unkind thought, or even a momentary lust. Where we differ is on the point that a true Christian can commit premeditated sin. I disagree! To me premeditated means the person involved has weighed out their decision. They have thought of the pros and cons. That they are fully aware this is in fact sin and have come to the decision that they don’t care, that their perceived need (whatever it was, revenge, lust, greed and etc) out weighed everything else. I really don't think a truly committed and saved Christian will make that decision. I think there is many people that think their saved, living for Christ that will make that decision but I think they have been deceived, they had never truly committed their life and salvation to Christ. They have fallen for easy ‘believism’, they have never confronted actual and potential sin in their lives, never really repented of sin. They just don’t want to go to hell so they are told to believe and believe they do. Once again my point in this discussion is not over ‘once saved always saved’, but rather on what constitutes salvation. If repentance of sin is required for salvation (and I believe it is as stated in the Gospels) and repentance means turning away from sin, I think premeditated sin (staying in sin) shows no repentance hence no real salvation. The person might be on the very threshold of salvation but until they have crossed over and repented of premeditated sin, their salvation has never been completed. That threshold may not be happened upon at the every beginning of their walk but can in fact be found anywhere in that walk. But the decision still has to be made. Will I willfully and with forethought commit this sin or will I not. On one point I hope we both agree, should we ever find a person in sin (whether they are saved or not ) we need to help them find their path into righteousness and never view them as hopeless or lost forever. EdB |
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7 | Show me scripture that says we can sin | Acts 15:11 | DocTrinsograce | 143842 | ||
Hi, brother Ed... Although we would disagree on the theological mechanics, I am quite comfortable with the biblical soundness of your conclusions. Furthermore, I thank you for making them. So, please, don't get upset with these questions -- instead, please bring to mind 1 Thes 5:14. (1) In view of these conclusions, how ought we to harmonize Galatians 6:1? (2) And 1 John 1:8? (3) Isn't there an aspect of repentance that is part of the continuous process of sanctification (per Psa 139:23, for example)? In Him, Doc |
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8 | Show me scripture that says we can sin | Acts 15:11 | EdB | 143848 | ||
Doc Addressing points 1 and 2 I don’t think I ever said a Christian never sins. If I did or implied as much then I was wrong. What I meant and I believe I did say was a Christian will not enter into preconceived or premeditated sin. There is a big difference. For instance I believe a Christian can be found guilty of manslaughter where in rage they killed a fellow human being, but I don’t think a Christian can be guilty of first degree murder where they staked the victim for months planing the murder. Philippians 4:8 (NASB) 8 Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. James 1:14-16 (NASB) 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren. Notice the results in the passage from James, “death”, can’t be reconciled to a saved person can it? Point 3 I never said nor did I mean to imply upon salvation all sin is immediately conquered. In fact I never addressed the point at all. But since you brought it into the discussion let me comment. Many have to re-train the tongue where a slip will cause us distress, habits have to be conquered but we are instantly aware that they do not conform to a righteous life. The worst thing that can be done as we walk the walk of sanctification is to be told “oh don’t worry everyone sins.” What I said is as we walk the path of Salvation each one of us is brought to a threshold, or a fork in the road, where we must choose. Either to continue to satisfy the lust within our flesh or to submit to God and resist the devil so that he flees from us James 4:7. I answered you as best I could keeping 1 Thess 5:14 in mind but also recalling Hebrews 5:13-14 to mind also EdB |
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9 | Show me scripture that says we can sin | Acts 15:11 | DocTrinsograce | 143850 | ||
Dear Brother Ed, Thank you for your patience, sir. I see the balance in what you are saying. You did, indeed, use the term premeditation in your previous posts. With that, and your current post, all is clear. This message you have been underscoring should be an encouragement to believers and a fearful warning to those who play-act in the faith. May the Lord use it to His glory. Thank you again, sir. Hopefully I have the 1 Peter 2:2 attitude! :-) In Him, Doc |
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