Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | IS LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN A PARABLE | Luke 16:19 | kalos | 156688 | ||
"If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth." ____________________ If anyone reading this is a Jehovah's Witness, please understand that I am not against you as an individual. 'Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man 'In Luke 16:19-31 is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either. 'Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question then is, if it is? What is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are. 'The words associated with Hell 'Gehenna 'In the OT, the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom' meaning "Valley of Hinnom." It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called 'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3; 33:6; Jer. 7:31; 32:25)(1). This is probably why in the NT the word came to be associated with destruction by fire. The word 'gehenna' is found in the NT 12 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In the NT, "gehenna" is used of a condition and never of a place. 'Hades 'This word only occurs in the NT, ten times, and corresponds to the OT word "sheol." Jesus uses the word four times: Matt. 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23. The other six occur in Acts 2:27,31; Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13,14. 'It was probably the "subterranean abode of all the dead until the judgment. It was divided into two departments, paradise or Abraham's bosom for the good, and Gehenna or hell for the bad."(2) In particular, in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man of (Luke 16:19-31), it is the place of the conscious dead who are wicked. 'Sheol '"The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root "to make hollow," and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the grave.(3) It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35; Num. 16:30,33; Psalm 16:10, etc. Sheol has many meanings in scripture: the grave, the underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15,17; Psalm 86:13). (...) 'Conclusion 'Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong. 'Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30"And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell," (Matt. 5:29-30).' ____________________ (www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm) |
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2 | IS LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN A PARABLE | Luke 16:19 | SBoone | 156706 | ||
Greetings, I am not a Jehovah's Witness, but I appreciated your comment that different ideas don't pit Christians against people. Your comment "if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth" is true, but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion. How do you explain the parable just prior to this in Luke 16:1-9. It seems to me that Christ here is using a negative action and drawing a spiritual positive comparison. This story has bothered me in that Christ uses someone's sinful behavior (squandering anothers possessions) to illustrate a principal that He wants us to follow (being faithful). Is it possible that Jesus simply taught so that those He spoke to could understand the truths He wanted them to understand. If I were a missionary and visited a tribe that believed the sun would punish thier bad behavior. Could I use a story of the sun showing mercy to illustrate the principle of mercy without condoning sun worship? Didn't Paul do something similar in Acts 17:23? God Bless |
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3 | IS LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN A PARABLE | Luke 16:19 | kalos | 156710 | ||
SBoone: In the parable in Luke 16:1-9, what false DOCTRINE is Jesus using to teach a truth? In your example of using "a story of the sun showing mercy", the teaching that the sun [or sun god] consciously punishes people or shows mercy to them IS a FALSE teaching. It is not literally true. In the NASB Acts 17:23 says: "For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. In this verse, what FALSE TEACHING is Paul using? Isn't it a fact that he "found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD'"? Isn't it a fact that they worshipped in ignorance? Isn't it also a fact that Paul proclaimed to them He Whom they thought of as "AN UNKNOWN GOD?" The same verse in the NLT reads: "You have been worshiping him without knowing who he is, and now I wish to tell you about him." Did not Paul tell them about the God whom they had been worshiping without knowing who he is? So again, what false teaching is Paul using in the passage in Acts? He isn't using a false teaching; he is pointing out their error to them. How can he teach them about something without mentioning what it is he's talking about? Grace to you, Kalos * * * * * * * * * * * * * For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. 2 Tim 4:3a NIV |
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4 | IS LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN A PARABLE | Luke 16:19 | SBoone | 156711 | ||
Kalos, In Luke 16:1-9 is it not a false doctrine that we should "rob" others in order to benefit ourselves? Is this not what the man did. He squandered his masters goods, and then he further cheated his master by discounting debts in order to protect his own future. Jesus then teaches that this was being faithful. Neither of us would then teach that we should use others to their loss and our gain. Rather we point to the point of the parable that Christ asks us to be faithful in the smallest areas and then more will be given us. I believe Paul was not saying this believing that they had been mistakenly worshiping the true God. I believe that he knew this to be another minor alter to yet another pagan god. He took advantage of their "ignorance" about one of their gods to teach an eternal truth. The false doctrine was worshiping the pagan god which the alter represented. Paul was not teaching false doctrine. He taught true doctine by using something others were treating in a false way. That being said. If you are correct that their worship of this unknown god was actually the worship of the Living God. Then it does nothing for my point. However the Luke 16:1-9 still illustrates my point. Thank you for your answer. |
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5 | IS LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN A PARABLE | Luke 16:19 | Morant61 | 156713 | ||
Greetings Sboone! If I may interject, there are several problems with your use of Luke 16:1-9. First of all, Jesus never said that the dishonest manager was being 'faithful'. Secondly, the details of the parable are not 'false', simply negative. Thirdly, we are not commanded to 'rob' others in the parable. We are given instruction about the use of worldy wealth. I would find in inconceivable that God would state something as fact that is not true (Lazarus and the rich man is never called a parable in Scripture) to teach some spiritual truth. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | IS LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN A PARABLE | Luke 16:19 | SBoone | 156732 | ||
Hi Tim, Thanks for you comments. You make good points. It is using a negative to teach a principle. In my mind it still helps explain the Rich man and Lazarus story that follows. I believe that scripture never contradicts itself, and there are some texts that I can't reconcile to this story. Death is equivalent to a sleep Job 14:12,21 John 11:11-14 1 Thes 4:13-15 Matt 9:24 Along with many OT references to Kings sleeping when dead. Ps 146:4 "His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." In Gen 2:7 we are told that dust plus God's Breath equals a living being. In Eccl 12:7 we are told that death equals dust minus breath. Note - see margin note 1 on eccl 12:7. In Dan 12:2 says we sleep until the resurrection. Dan 12:13 says that Daniel was to enter into rest and rise again for his allotted portion at the end of the age. You must assume he is not receiving his allotted portion now. Is 57:1,2 Says the dead rest in their beds. Gen 3:17-19 God tells Adam that you are dust and to dust you shall return. Not your body but "you". Ps 115:17 "The dead do not praise the Lord". If they are in heaven why do they not praise the Lord? They will praise the Lord when they are awaken from their sleep. John 7:34 Jesus tells the disciples that where He goes they can not come. He must come back to get us. John 14:3 tells us that Christ left, but will come again to receive us to Himself, "THAT WHERE I AM, THERE YOU MAY BE ALSO". In context of these verses I can not believe that would God contidicts Himself in Luke 16. If the dead are asleep then the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus must have been a parable, or it was a glimps into the future when the wicked would be finally destroyed in hell. There are many other verses, but these give the basis of my thoughts. I know you don't share this view, and I do not mean to belittle yours or anyone else's views. I truly respect the comments that I have read on this board, and have found so much guidance. I simply share what my studies have lead me to believe. Your's in Christ |
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7 | IS LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN A PARABLE | Luke 16:19 | kalos | 156772 | ||
Yes, and if the dead are not asleep, then the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus doesn't have to be a parable. What does the Bible say about soul sleep? 'Answer: When the Bible says a person is “sleeping†in relation to death (Luke 8:52; 1Cor 15:6), it does not mean literal “sleepâ€. Sleeping is just a way to describe death because a dead body appears to be sleeping. The Bible tells us that the instant you die, you are taken to heaven or Hell based on whether you had received Christ as your Savior or not. For believers, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (2Cor 5:6-8; Phil 1:23). For unbelievers, death means everlasting punishment in Hell (Luke 16:22-23). The concept of “soul sleep†is not a Biblical doctrine. The moment we die, we face the judgment of God (Heb 9:27). Until the resurrection, though, there is currently a temporary heaven “Paradise†(Luke 23:43; 2Cor 12:4) and Hell “Hades†(Rev 1:18; 20:13-14). 'In a sense, a person’s body is “sleeping†while their soul is in Paradise or Hades. This body is then “awoken†and transformed into the eternal body a person will possess for eternity. These eternal bodies are what we possess for all of eternity, whether we are in heaven or Hell. Those who were in Paradise will be sent to the New Heavens and New Earth (Rev 21:1). Those who were in Hades will be thrown into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people - based entirely on whether a person had trusted Jesus Christ alone for the salvation of their sins.' ____________________ www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html Grace to you, Kalos |
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