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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | Sir Pent | 16191 | ||
My belief IS based on the Bible, Kalos, I understand that you think it is "absurd" to believe "that capital punishment is not the will of God". I also understand that you have a biblical basis for that belief (almost exclusively from the Old Testament). What I hope that you can begin to understand is that I too have a biblical basis (incorporating the Old and New Testaments) for my belief. The death penalty is not wrong because Sir Pent says it is. It is wrong because the Bible in it's entirety says that it is. I will attempt to (using many biblical passages) explain to you my reasoning for this belief. Let me begin by agreeing with you that in ancient Israel, it was right to kill people for certain reasons. For instance God specifically commanded stoning to death for certain sins (1 Samuel 15), and specifically commanded killing certain kings and enemy nations (Exodus 19:10-13). However, I the Bible also documents a fundamental change that occurred, which causes killing for any reason to no longer be an appropriate action. This fundamental change happended between Christ's death and resurrection. During that time, Jesus preached to all the people who had died before that time (1 Peter 3:19). Therefore, it seems that although the people in the OT were killed in the body, they still had a chance to later hear Christ's message to them. However, from that time on, people have had the opportunity to hear the message of salvation during this lifetime, so that when they die, their eternity is set (Hebrews 9:27). This is why I think that killing people now is so terrible. It not only kills their body, but also takes away any chance that they would later come to know Christ and be saved. I think that it is interesting and somewhat supportive that never in the NT is it presented as good for a human to kill someone. In fact the only times when death is seen as a good thing, it is done by God Himself or His angels. Some instances are Annanias and his wife Saphira (Acts 5:1-10), King Herrod (Acts 12:21-23). I want to close by just restating that the point I am making is that the system changed, not that God changed. (James 1:17) I think that the sacrificial system of the Old Testament is a good parallel. In the Old Testament it was not morally wrong to kill a sheep for the reason of cleansing of sin. However, there was a fundamental change in the system (Christ death once for all), which makes it now morally wrong for a Christian to go around killing sheep to cleanse themselves from sin. Of course, the change with regards to sacrifices is much more obvious in the Bible, and that's why we don't have modern Christians discussing it on internet forums. I believe it is because the change with regards to killing people is less obvious that there is such confusion today. |
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2 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | EdB | 16233 | ||
I tried and I tried to restrain myself, I told myself it would serve no purpose and would probably irritate someone, but I can not sit here and read this without saying something. God established life, God established death, God outlawed murder, and God condoned execution. God made life precious by saying thou shall not kill, God also established the seriousness of some crimes by saying certain crimes will cause you to forfeit your right to live. Jesus died for our sin, sin is rebellion against God and God’s laws, Jesus did not die to pay for our crimes against society. If a man commits a bank robbery, is caught and convicted and sentenced to prison, then becomes a born again believer surely you do not think he should be released. Why not? However you say if a man murders someone, is caught convicted and sentenced to die. This wrong. Why? If God said some crimes are serious enough to warrant execution how can you say that has changed? Jesus told Peter in Matthew 26:52 “But Jesus said to him, "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword will perish by the sword.” What he was saying was if you kill this man you will be arrested and then executed. He did not call the process wrong. |
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3 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | Sir Pent | 16353 | ||
Dear EdB, I would like to take this opportunity to agree with almost your entire last post. You said that God established life and death. I say that I totally agree. You said that God said not to murder, but supported (in the OT) execution sometimes. I say that I totally agree (with parenthesis added). You said that Jesus died to cleanse us of the eternal consequences of sin. I say that I totally agree. You said that Jesus forgiveness does not cancel out earthly consequences of sin. I say that I totally agree. You said that the Matthew 26:52 (below) is only saying that if you kill you will be killed, not that it is wrong. I say that on this one point I would have to disagree with you. If we look at the context of the verses around it, Jesus does say that if the disciple lives by the sword he will die by the sword. However, He also says to put the sword away, and that using the sword indicates a lack of faith in God the Father's ability to protect. Also if you read the parallel passage in Luke (also below), Jesus tells the disciples to not use their swords anymore, and heals the damage done by the first strike. This also indicates that He did not approve of that action. Matthew chapter 26 51: And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, and struck the slave of the high priest, and cut off his ear. 52: Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place; for all who take the sword will perish by the sword. 53: Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels? Luke chapter 22 49: And when those who were about him saw what would follow, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" 50: And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. 51: But Jesus said, "No more of this!" And he touched his ear and healed him. |
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4 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | EdB | 16357 | ||
Sir Pent in the case of believers I think we must depend on God for our protection, and as believers we should not kill to defend ourselves from people that would persecute us for our belief. However I think we should be prepared to defend ourselves from people that would kill us to they could then rape our children and wives. Crime carries a penalty. God gave us a definition of those crimes and the penalties for those crimes in the Pentateuch. Society and governments have accepted those definitions to establish what was acceptable within their rule. God stated if someone stole something and was caught the thief had to repay 7 fold. Our society changed that to say you go to jail, and we now have jails full of thieves. God stated if you took someone’s life you forfeited yours, society changed that and we have punks getting their kicks by killing people in drive by shootings. No one wants a criminal to go free and everyone is looking for the answer to crime in America. Does anyone think it might be found in God’s word? Go to an Islamic nation the crime for stealing is forfeiture of a hand. If your caught a second time they cut off the other hand. Walk the streets of many of these countries, you will have to hunt far and wide to find someone with a missing hand. Then walk the streets and try to find someone with both hands cut off. Am I advocating Islamic law? No! But think about it, if a thief was forced into chain gang labor until he worked off 7 fold what he stole how many thieve would we have? If these punks that get their kicks out of drive by shooting saw their friends tired and convicted and executed for killing someone how many would be prone to do it themselves? God supplied the answers to law, government and fairly applying the law, we have chosen to say it is wrong or doesn’t apply today. Why don’t we just take the Old Testament tear it out and say it doesn’t apply. And since the New Testament says nothing about rape, murder, extortion, and etc. Let’s just say they are unacceptable and the perpetuator has time out until he decides to act in an acceptable manner. I’m sure you think that is absurd but is in any more absurd than for us to think we have a better idea of crime and crime prevention than God. |
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5 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | Sir Pent | 16613 | ||
Dear EdB, You said at the end of your post that you were sure that I would find it absurd to tear out the Old Testament and just put criminals on "time out" for a while. You are completely correct, I do think that's absurd. You also referred to the ineptness of our justice system, as compared to ones in other countries. I would have to completely agree with you again. I do not think that our justice system is as good as it could be. I also think that there should be tougher punishments for crimes. Although specifics would have to be worked out, I think that having criminals work to repay for damages or theft, could be a great idea. In fact, although it seems barbaric, I also see some logic behind other countries laws requiring castration for sex offenders. That would be both a deterrant to first crimes as well as making repeat offenses impossible. Going into more detail as to how the justice system should punish specific crimes should probably be a seperate thread. But I just wanted to let you know that just because I am against killing fellow human beings, doesn't mean that I am against there being serious consequences of crime. |
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6 | 'Conscientious Objection' Biblical? | Ex 20:13 | EdB | 16618 | ||
Praise God for that! | ||||||