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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
61 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226280 | ||
I think if you objectively look at what I said I did base my reply on scripture. My reference to the Talmud was to show the historical view the Jews held of Hades. A view that was exactly as Jesus described in Luke 16:19-31. To me the question then becomes if the Jewish view was incorrect would Jesus in effect reinforce this misview it by painting the same picture? Or is the Jewish view correct and Jesus confirmed it by painting the picture he did in Luke 16:19-31. Again I gave no credence to the Talmud other than as a historical document and I only used it to show what the Jews beleived long before Jesus spoke the parable of Luke 16:19-31. So enlighten me where did I stray from sola scriptura? |
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62 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226281 | ||
I totally agree we should always reject anything the conflicts with scripture. Scripture is the standard. However in this case the Talmud does not disagree with scripture but confirms scripture. The historical Jewish view of Hades as described in the Talmud and Jewsih oral tradition is nearly identical to the picture painted by our Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 16:19-31. Therefore since the Talmud and oral traditions align with scripture Luke 16:19-31 in this case I don't see a problem. |
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63 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226286 | ||
I totally agree with Hank's view when scripture is silent. And I think we would all be wise to remember this quote. However on the subject in question, silence is not the case. Jesus clearly painted a word picture of Hades. There are those that say we should discount the picture as only a parable and retain only the lesson the picture taught. Others like myself believe we should view the picture as painted and forgetting the many subtitles of theology accept what we see as a child would. Luke 18:17. If a child were to hear this parable, I believe would see both the picture as painted and hopefully also retain the lesson Jesus developed in the parable. Nothing more, but nothing less. Now if this violates the spirit of the forum, I think not, but if so, I do apologize. |
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64 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226287 | ||
You are taking a view of Judaism that is not universally taken by all schools of orthodox Christian theology. Your view is called the reformed view and not all share that view of Jews. But no matter, I did not quote the Talmud as an authority on matter but rather to show what the Jews believed before Jesus ever spoke this parable. The real question to me is, if the Jews had a distorted or incorrect view of Hades would Jesus have reinforced it by repeating it in his teaching? I think not. If the view was in fact wrong I would think Jesus would have said you believe this but you are wrong as He often did. However in this case we see no such correction being made. I believe that fact and that fact alone confirms that Jewish view of Hades was indeed correct. And that Jesus included it in his parable because it was known to all the listeners and would make sense to them. Again I did not reference the Talmud as anything other than a historical account of what the Jews already believed. |
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65 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226290 | ||
There are many things. First scripture tells us in Heaven there is not more tears no more mourning. If the scene was heaven and hell then those in heaven can see the torment of the those in Hell. Not a happy thought. And yes I agree that one day we will fully understand God's justice but that fact notwithstanding to view a formers loved one in constant agony would cause many to be sad. Second everything I read in scripture says the only way to heaven is by Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ hadn't made a way into heaven yet for Abraham, we know Abraham was righteous but righteousness itself is not the door into heaven. We know Abraham was looking for a Messiah to open that door. So I can't see any place in scripture that suggests the righteous dead of the Old Testament went to heaven until Christ made the way. Third Jesus said to the thief on cross, today you will be with me in paradise he did not say heaven. Paradise to the all that heard meant the definition I offered and not heaven. Fourth Hell/Hades is not the judgment of the unrighteous, the Lake of Fire is. Rev 20 Fifth and lastly, whether you want to accept it or not the listeners of the time had that view of Hades. They viewed Hades as the resting place for the dead. One side they believe the unrighteous dead awaited judgment and the other the righteous dead lived in paradise awaiting a Messiah to take them to heaven. That was what the listeners to Jesus' parable believed. Now for Jesus to repeat exactly what they believed in His parable would tend to confirm to them that they were correct would it not? Would Jesus allow such a misunderstanding? If their view of Hades was wrong I would imagine Jesus if he didn't want to correct it would have avoided the subject and used another example in His parable. Or Jesus would have said this is what you believe and it is wrong. Neither of these things happened. Jesus instead used a common teaching in his parable, to me that one thing more than anything else confirms to me that it is true. Now let us look at the theological ramifications of what I believe and what you believe. First you believe Jesus wasn't the only way into heaven that there was another way. Belief in the Messiah. I believe every good Jew believes in the Messiah, what they don't believe is that Jesus was the Messiah. So under your theology some Jews got in because the believed in the Messiah but not necessarily Jesus while other Jews didn't get in even though they believe in a Messiah but don't think Jesus was He. Isn’t that a conflict? Secondly if my view is correct there is absolutely no violation of Christian theology or of scripture. The righteous dead did have to await their Messiah to take them into the promised land (heaven) as first seen in the Exodus. And since the Messiah did come Paul’s teaching on being absent from the body and present with the Lord is fully realized. Now I answered you. Now tell me why you are so resistant to accepting this as a picture of Hades as painted by our Lord? |
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66 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226293 | ||
To prove your point you refer to Gill but when I refer to the Talmud I'm in violation of Sola Scriptura. Is it fair to have two standards? One for you and another for me? Of course "in" can mean "in" as literally in or as meaning "in" as in being near. In heaven does our comfort come from another or from the Lord. When I get to heaven I may enjoy talking to Abraham but my comfort will come from the presence of the Lord. I won't be resting in Abraham's bosom if I understand scripture correctly. See there is something really missing in this description if it is of Heaven. That being the presence of the Lord which from all scripture I read "over shadows" all else. Abraham may be a great friend BUT my comfort comes from the comforter. |
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67 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226295 | ||
Why is repeating of a common interpretation of Luke 16:19-31 a reiteration while you and others telling me I'm wrong is not? I believe Lockman's objective is to study the Bible and when there are differences of interpretation to objectively present both sides without calling one right and one wrong or trying to impeach one by suggestting it is less than Biblical. Is that not the objective? |
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68 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226296 | ||
Okay if I put words into your mouth I apologize. But I thought that is what you said. You said Abraham went to heaven not because Jesus died on the cross but because Abraham believed in the comming Messiah who would redeem him. Is that not correct? But aren't all real Jews looking for the Messiah? Their error was they rejected Jesus as that Messiah. But if a Jew dies today he still believes that the Messiah one day will come and lead him to heaven. Isn't that belief the exact belief you said got Abraham to heaven? I don't know you tell me. |
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69 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226298 | ||
I'm sorry I really didn't mean to offend you. I think my original thoughts were correct we need to let this subject drop. Again I apologize, please forgive me my brother. Ed |
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70 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226300 | ||
I used the term real Jews to make differentiate between Jews in name only and Jews that earnestly desire to serve God. Just as there are real Christians and those that call themselves Christians but know not the Lord. Yes I know the failure of the Jew but I also know many still expect to see the conquering Messiah. Isn't that what the Book of Revelations is all about? When the Jews realize they missed the Messiah and repent and are saved. Oh I forgot you are probably a Preterist and don't see Revelations as I do either. |
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71 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226324 | ||
Beja I too stepped away in prayer and I think I know your heart. You are a scholar and gentleman and I'm truly sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. In my defense the theology I mistakenly thought you were holding to has been worming it's way into the church in the last couple of years. A few in the name of tolerance and inclusion have been trying say just the belief in a Messiah is enough. Their intent is to give Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Mormons, Bahai Temple and many others entrance into heaven. I have heard it taught by false teachers in both the church and on TV. One of my once favorite authors actually came out with the same idea in the last book of his I have or ever will again read. |
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72 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226329 | ||
And I agree with you they were saved by faith in Messiah but I don't think they had access to God the Father in Heaven until Christ actually died on the cross. Their sins hadn't been washed from them by the blood of the Lamb. The Passover Lamb of God had not yet had his blood poured out. Certainly it was the New Covenant that was made and sealed by the Blood of Christ that provided their entrance into heaven. I truly believe that is what Psalms 68:18 is promising and Eph 4:8 which quoted Psalms 68 is confirming the fulfillment of. Jesus the victor over death, the FIRST resurrection, lead captivity (those held by death) captive (given to Him by God) to heaven. If my theology is correct on this point and I'm totally convinced it is, then the righteous dead that died before Christ had to reside somewhere. That somewhere was paradise or place described in Luke 16:19-31 as Abraham's bosom. They were saved they just had to await the Messiah to open the door through which they could enter. |
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73 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 226350 | ||
Enoch, Elijah and Moses are exceptions rather than the rule. They are unique and as such can't be used to prove or disprove anything in regards to this discussion. they are what they are and proof God does make exceptions. As far as paradise. The Greek word is defined as a park or or a garden, with the implication of being very beautiful, peaceful and restful. I believe the genesis of this word is found in the human understanding of the Garden of Eden. In Luke 16 I believe the word is talking of specific place Abrahams bosom which the original hearers of this parable pictured as Eden like, extremely beautiful, restful and peaceful. In 2 Cor 12:4 not so much as specific place but rather as a description of the beautiful Eden like place where Paul found himself. Rev 2:7 as specific place The Garden of Eden where we know the Tree of Life is present. |
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74 | How does one explain the above steps? | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 232586 | ||
Jenny I would suggest you ask one question and then get a good solid answer fixed in your mind then go to the next. Do not let your son lead the discussion he will snow ball you into confusion. Been there done that. Take one specific objection of his and address it until he admits God is God. Then and only then move on to the next question. Again been there done that. His problem is probably not coming from professors as much as peers who wax philosophical into the late evening hours. Again been there done that. It is amazing how brilliant we are when we get to college and how stupid we see ourselves when we fully mature. |
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75 | Can anyone explain Mat 24:15? | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 232773 | ||
I just had an interesting discussion on Daniel's 70th week. What if there wasn’t a gap between the 69th and 70th week. The events that occurred in Daniel 70th week can easily be seen in history if we view the “he” of Daniel 9:27 as “HE” Jesus Christ who indeed did halt the sacrifice by rendering it useless. If the gap is removed then all of sudden the time line we use for Revelation is removed. It doesn't effect the Book of Revelation it only removes Daniels 70th week as being the time line. Now consider Revelation without the Daniel’s timeline and see how it more closely fits to Matthew 24:15. I’m not suggesting as Preterist often do that the events of Revelation have already occurred but rather I still believe them as being in the future but that Daniel’s 70th week was never the timeline for them. |
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76 | Romans in the light of Jonah does it say | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 232818 | ||
The question is stated in the second paragraph. It is if the understanding of Romans 1:19-32 which I detailed in my question is correct why did God go to such extremes as seen in the Book of Jonah to send Jonah to Nineveh to tell them of God? Why also did God chasten Jonah for his lack of compassion toward the people of Nineveh because Jonah wanted to withhold from them the truth of God? I then offered some food for thought that someone may use if they choose to explore these questions. |
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77 | Romans in the light of Jonah does it say | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 232830 | ||
Actually it is not a duplicate question it is a similar picture and an entirely different frame. Perhaps others would like to discuss the question or perhaps not. |
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78 | Romans in the light of Jonah does it say | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 232834 | ||
Bradk Now so? We have been given exposition of the Romans 1:18-32 that was declared to be the only correct understanding. My question then becomes how does that exposition stand in light of God's actions seen with Jonah and the city of Niveneh or what James declared about Demons and the knowledge of God. So far no one has answered the question they have only challenged it. |
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79 | Romans in the light of Jonah does it say | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 232836 | ||
If as you say this discussion has been going on since 2001, why has that happened with the divisiveness you claim has taken place. Why can’t someone present their expository position of the passage without being told due to improper scholarship their position is wrong? I’m seeing people being shut out from participating because they don’t hold the same theological bent that the people that are presently the most outspoken on this forum have. It seems the idea of the Studybible forum has become a place of debate, where the goal is to win. I don’t believe that was Lockman’s purpose for starting and supporting this forum. Their stated purpose is and I quote, “The StudyBibleForum.com is built from the "Bible" up. A synergetic resource built to enhance and deepen your study of God's Word. It's like a free study Bible with an unlimited margin, that contained helpful verse notes, and was continually expanding. A resource where you can access and/or contribute to a dynamic repository of verse notes. It's not a discussion group or topical survey, but an ever growing "expository repository" that gives the layman and scholar an opportunity to share truth and contribute wisdom.” And while I agree the StudyBible Forum should not be allowed to become a discussion group or topical survey. There is often more than one position seen in the exposition of a passage and EACH of those positions must be allowed TO BE FAIRLY AND EQUALLY presented. That is unless we want to declare the StudyBible as a expository of “x” theology, which seems likely to happen unless other expository views are allowed to be presented and fairly considered. |
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80 | Romans in the light of Jonah does it say | Bible general Archive 4 | EdB | 232837 | ||
Excuse me I didn't know I was addressing you. I was addressing the exposition of a passage that was presented and presented as the only correct exposition of the passage. I was asking if the conclusion of that exposition when viewed in the light of the whole of scripture did in fact say what the Scripture actually intended or not. I was asking how that exposition could then be reconciled with the events of Jonah and the quote passage in James. Or did the exposition go too far in its declaration of what Romans 1:18-32 actually says. |
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