Results 4921 - 4940 of 5155
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Results from: Notes Author: EdB Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
4921 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228633 | ||
You said sin has lost it power to condemn yet others have quoted scripture like 1 Cor 6:9,10 Ephesians 5:5,6 Galatians 5:19,20 allof which cite specific sin for condemnation. What has changed. | ||||||
4922 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228639 | ||
I think others also quoted them if not I'm sorry. In any case when we look at these verses appear to say various listed sins will cause a person to be eternal damnation. Yet Roman 6-8 says we are dead to sin, free from the penalty of the law, My question if we are still tempted, if we give into that temptation and sin and are condemned to eternal damnation what changed? I'm not being argumentative. But for years I have gave these answers as has proably every pastor ever asked the question. We throw it out and we expect the person asking the question to accept our answer and let it go. Romans 6-8 says we are free yet various other places still list the penalty of sin. Which is it are we free or not. Or have we not been looking at these passages and understandin what they say. I think it might be the latter and that is why I keep asking the question. How do you reconcile these verses? |
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4923 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228640 | ||
I did read post #228628 and and your answer is pivotal on the word consider. However Roman 6:2 right above it does not contain the word consider. So you reasoning only holds if the word consider is presence which it is not in 6:2 where it says we are dead to sin. Or am I missing something? I'm not sure what the definition of sin has to do with this discussion. please explain. My problem or question is can we life in sinless perfection. When I ask this question everyone responds with "We are dead to sin, We are free of the law, the law no longer convicts us" My question then becomes what has changed. Abraham is in heaven. He sinned and was forgiven. We sin and are promised forgiveness so what is different? Yes I know Christ died for our sins. However if we look at Romans 6,7, 8 in particular. It talks of no longer being under sin dominion. However we are still tempted, we are still guilty of sin and must repent, and if we commit sin as mentioned in many places we are told we will not go to heaven. So what is different between how we live today and how Abraham who trusted in the Messiah for his salvation lived? |
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4924 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228651 | ||
Beja I think you touched on a very important part here when you said,"his goal here is one thing, to show that the Law was NEVER able to lead us to righteous behavior, all it could ever produce was death." It is not to describe a physical or even spiritual change in people, Paul is teaching here what the law did and the fact we are no longer subject to it or the penalty it carried. And this I believe is the problem too many people quote Romans saying we are dead to sin, or dead to the law as if there was physical or spiritual change that took place making human almost immune to sin Thank you!!!!!! |
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4925 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228652 | ||
Doc Let your guard down this wasn't a pentecostal question. Perhaps I stated it wrong or everyone was reading what I said with a bias. As I read everyone's answers it was almost as if they were waiting for me to drop the other shoe. Not my intent. I wanted to know how others people on the studybible forum viewed sinless perfection based on their understanding of scripture they used to support their position. That was all I wanted. |
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4926 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228653 | ||
Beja I think I understand the scriptures I was asking what you thought sinless perfection meant and what scripture do you use to support your postion. Most answered with the scriptures I suspected they would but when asked to how they felt this supported their position it seemed like they got very defensive and their answer became confusing to me and I was trying to sort them out. No trickery, no hidden agenda, I just wanted to know how you all viewed the question. |
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4927 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228686 | ||
Tim I can see how you got to where you are on Romans 7 and you make a strong argument. However I'm still a bit confused. In light of all the discussion do you view sinless perfection as goal we should strive for or real possibility in this life? |
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4928 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228687 | ||
Tim said, "These statements, in my mind, don't make sense in relation to Rom. 6, Rom. 8, and Gal. 5. But, they do make perfect sense in Paul is describing himself as he was, a Pharisee, who wanted to obey God's Law but could not because of his sinful nature." Do we really lose that sin nature when we are saved or are through the Holy Spirit just better able to control it? When we are save so we lose the envy, the desire to gossip or speak behind someone's back, the lust of the eyes, the lust of flesh and the pride of life? Or are all those things still present in us? Let us look at a Bank Robber. Why does he rob a bank? Is it not to get rich quick? Does he have a choice to rob or not rob the Bank? Now let us look at the same Bank Robber who is now saved. Does ne not have the same motive for robbing the Bank, to get rich quick? Does he not have the same choice whether to rob the Bank or not? What has changed other than perhaps his desire to obey God either out of love for Jesus or fear of Hell? |
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4929 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228694 | ||
Tim You made the statement that, " the difference for the believer is that we don't HAVE TO disobey God." Do you then believe the inverse of this is true that an unbeliever has to disobey God? Let us look at adultery, does a unsaved person have to commit adultery? Why does he do it? First he probably thinks there will be not consequences no heaven no hell. Second he likes sex. Third illicit sex is more exciting more full of promise. Now look at the saved man. Does he not have the choice to commit adultery? He still likes sex. He still thinks illicit sex is more exciting or has more promise. But the difference is he knows it has consequences Heaven and hell. He also knows if he really loves Jesus he will obey Jesus. But his nature never changed. Just his knowledge of the certianity of consequences. |
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4930 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228696 | ||
1 John tells us there is lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life. We see Satan using these three in the garden to tempt Eve. Genesis 3:6 (NKJV) 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. She didn't have a sin nature until after she ate and yet she moved in the big three. Now when a person is saved they still retain the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye and pride of life. They may be able to contain those but they are still present in our earthly bodies. It isn't until we get our incorruptable bodies that the big three is no longer present. Can we live in sinless perfection, I'm not sure but I don't think so because. I'm sure that each step we take that takes us closer to the holiness of God the more we are able to see our imperfections and things we need to deal with in our lives. I can understand that sinless perfection should be the goal of every Christian but since our bodies still have the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eye and the pride of life within it we are going to stumble. Perhaps not in ways we now think of as sin but in ways we never considered before because we were so busy dealing with the things we knew to be sin. I think all too often in church we cite Paul and I don't think even Peter fully understood Paul at times. At least not without a lot of thought and prayer. What is see in Paul and also in Peter is they were in constant struggle to walk in Jesus' footsteps and both felt they missed stepped at times. |
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4931 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228697 | ||
Tim I would also be remiss if I didn't thank you for you scholarship and effort you made to help me get my hands around this subject better. Thank you very much. Ed |
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4932 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228698 | ||
Beja I tend to agree with you and in 1 John we see lust of the flesh, lust of the eye and pride of life as the motives for sin and I believe they are still within us even as believers. I think they were in Eve before she sinned. Genesis 3:6 (NKJV) 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. Good for food - Lust of the flesh pleasant to look at - Lust of the eye Would make one wise - Pride of life. |
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4933 | Is sinless perfection possible on earth? | 1 John 1:8 | EdB | 228750 | ||
biblicalman Forgive me I thanked Beja and Tim but neglected to thank you for your input on this. These last few posts of yours has been real food for thought for me. I tend to agree more with your view of man's position in sin. I think we also have to consider the sins of omission, like not worshipping God enough, not praying enough, or not being thankful to God for all the things He has done for us that we take for grant. I know you and Tim have discussed the Greek on this but clarify your position for me on 1 John 1:8 what do you see this as saying? Or who do you think is being soijen of when it says "We" is that talking of sinners before their salvation. Or is talking of Christians that still have occasion to sin? Thanks so very much for your input |
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4934 | who is pure from sin | 1 John 1:9 | EdB | 38065 | ||
Bgg Oh sure you can find "living in Sin' in those "pagan" Bibles but show me where it says that in the Bible Jesus used. :-) Just kidding I was trying to bring a litle humor into a thread that may be getting tense. EdB |
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4935 | How do we preach the Gospel? | 1 John 2:2 | EdB | 100326 | ||
George Where do you start if they don't believe the Bible is the actual word of God? Telling them Rom 3:23 or Rom 6:23 makes no sense to someone that doesn't hold the scripture is inspired word of God. So where do you start then? EdB |
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4936 | How do we preach the Gospel? | 1 John 2:2 | EdB | 100386 | ||
George "Although I don't like to put it this way, I feel that the Lord put the following into my heart to tell this person. If there is a God and the bible is His word and I live by what it says, I will spend eternity with my God and reap the rewards promised in His Word. If there isn't a God and I still live by what the bible says, have I not gained more than I have lost by loving others? In actuality, what have I lost? However, if there is a God and The Bible IS His word to man and You do not live by it, what have you lost.... Your eternal soul! The Bible also speaks of what the non believer will experience. (then I quote the passage about Lazarus and the rich man.)" Actually George that play on human logic is older than you or I. If the person is a logically thinking person they may buy into it, but usually not. George your right we may never see the fruit of our labor. But once again if we can show the person where our life was changed for the better, that we have purpose, that we feel God's love this will usually soften even the hardest heart. People always what to know what is in it for them. Insurance is very hard to sell so we have to show them that Christ made a differnece in our life today. Some try to do this with material things and lose most of their audiences. However if we can show them they can have a relationship, can feel God's love and know they are no longer alone I find many will start to listen. Then I can present them the Gospel. I have had the pleasure of sharing the gospel with many that started out not even willing to accept the Bible was anything more than mythology written by man. To do it I had to show them what my belief in God and Jesus Christ did for me. I had to be living the lifestyle also they want to see my walk where my mouth was also. I repeat my first statement. The best way to share Jesus with someone is being able to tell them what Jesus has done for you. that opens the door to the gospel. EdB |
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4937 | How do we preach the Gospel? | 1 John 2:2 | EdB | 100413 | ||
George I didn't say parade a laundry list of benefits before them. I said explain to them what being in relationship in Christ means to us. Upon salvation our lives changed and it should be for the better, our fears, our doubts, our longing for purpose, for reassurance, should have left us. We should sense God’s love, His desire to care and provide for us, His desire to walk along side us, to be a friend. We have the Holy Spirit a comforter, a friend, teacher, leader, Someone we can lean on when the things get bad and Someone to rejoice with when the times get good. When we are in proper relationship we are not longer alone, unloved, moving through life looking for purpose, a sense of being, we become made complete and we should be able to express that without bragging, without flaunting, or without offending. However our life must live up to what we say. If we walk as the world does and say we have Christ and the world sees nothing different. However if we live the victorious life, living with purpose and meaning, having the fruit of the spirit manifested and evident in out lives then people see ours is not empty hollow words but life and life more abundant. George I submit to you the martyrs of Rome didn’t win people by their preaching it was by how they died. The fear the dread was gone. They were praying for their executioners. They sang hymns as the fire from their bodies light the night sky. That was a testimony that won Rome. They had something the rest of Rome wanted. Paul clearly states it wasn’t his preaching or teaching that won people, it was what they saw in Paul, as the fruit of the Spirit manifested in Paul’s life people saw it and wondered and desire something similar in their lives. Paul then shared the gospels. Don’t be so worried about who does what. Jesus has told us to go be His witnesses in all the world. We have no choice here we must live what God has given us before the world, being ready to offer a testimony when the world says, “hey your different, why?” That my friend is what break down walls and barriers. EdB |
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4938 | How do we preach the Gospel? | 1 John 2:2 | EdB | 100414 | ||
Colin By living the victorious life before them. Christian's should stand out in a crowd, not because they are always preaching Jesus Christ, not because they have crosses around their neck, not because they act holier than thou. Christians should stand out in a crowd first because we are the light of the world, and secondly we have the Holy Spirit at work in our lives, and thirdly because the fruit of the Spirit is manifested and present in our lives. That one reason along will get you noticed. People will notice when, you treat people with love and respect, when you look out for them before you look out for yourself, when you prefer them to yourself, when you love them when they hate you. That gets noticed. The first thing Christians seem to want to do is get into someone’s face and say, “your going to hell” or put religious icons all over the place and say, “hey look at me.” When people get into trouble we sit there with our “knowing” look nodding our head going tsk tsk if you only knew Jesus. That turns people off! What we need to do is jump in with both feet and do everything we can to help them out of their trouble. Just loving on them and telling them they are going to make it. That is what people listens to. Think about it your down in the mud and there is a guy dressed in his whitest whites is standing there telling you how to get out, are you going to listen? People want someone that will reach down and pull them up and give them a boost, encourage them, love on them. Then they will listen to what you have to say. EdB |
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4939 | How do we preach the Gospel? | 1 John 2:2 | EdB | 100515 | ||
George I don’t have your confidence on how I might handle martyrdom. To me the men and women that watched their children being raped and then brutally pulled apart and facing horrendous deaths themselves yet all the while praying for their tormentors is something I hold in AWE I would never attempt to say, “Oh I’d do that too.” Our brand of Christianity today falls far short of early martyrs. In many cases just being a Christian was an automatic death sentence. Today we can’t people to church if the heat or air conditioning is broken. We live in a self centered society that has pushed that philosophy into the church. Many of us don't want to inconvenienced to man a soup kitchen let alone lay down our lives. You have to beg to get people to come to a prayer meeting can you imagine attendance if after the meeting all would be killed? That is why we (the church ) look no different than the world. We witness to the world with great words, but the world sees that the divorce rate in the church is higher than out, they see men and women claiming God will provide as the beg money on TV, they see Christians returning to work on Monday complaining just like they are, they see priest and preachers arrested for child abuse, fraud, sex crimes, you name it. They hear Christians talk of brotherly love and preferring others before themselves but they also see the church parking lot after service as each car is determined to beat the next out of the lot. They hear Christians speak of honesty and morals but they also hear us brag how we beat the IRS on the income tax, or we fraudulently secure building permits for church construction, or claim more charitable deductions than we gave, or we pass them at 80 with our I love Jesus bumper stickers. Or they get cut off by the car with a honk if you love Jesus bumper sticker. They see Christians take advantage of situations and do things they ought not do. Jesus called us to be salt and light to this world, we sit in our comfortable churches and say let us pray for the sinners, if we are faced with a seeker we lay the roman road of salvation on them and then we piously fold our hands and say it is now in God’s hands. What we need to do is start living a Christian life being the salt and light we were called to be. We would be shocked at the number of people that would seek us out to tell them about our Jesus. I preach! I’ll quit. EdB |
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4940 | How do we preach the Gospel? | 1 John 2:2 | EdB | 100516 | ||
Jehonadab I know the Bible is the Word of God, but I'm here to tell you most non believers will not buy your arguments. Their come back is, and happens to be supported by so called "experts", that the Bible was written after the facts, the archaeologist were merely influenced by the Bible or faulty historical record in their deciphering the meaning of certain finds. On Sundays in the afternoon on Moody Christian Radio they have Ravi Zackarias who is an Christian Apologist. You need to listen to him to get an idea of what apologists are facing when they contend for the Word of God with people that say the Bible is not the Word of God. Your arguments are shot down in the opening rounds. EdB |
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