Results 461 - 480 of 559
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Results from: Notes Author: Wild Olive Shoot Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
461 | Why Esau not got his blessing back? | Gen 27:35 | Wild Olive Shoot | 155221 | ||
iktoose, The correspondence you and mark shared seems to have answered the questions and my thoughts would agree. It’s not really a matter of condoning things contrary to God’s will for reason of a better outcome, or breaking laws for good reasons. To me, it is a matter of relying on the sovereignty of God and the fact that what he desires to happen does in fact happen. I would never agree that it is acceptable to break laws and to be deceitful and un-Christ like because we see a better result or a quicker result than letting God work it His way. We should never condone inappropriate behavior or unethical practices but inevitably, they’ll happen, we will sin. Isn’t it great, knowing that God can take our wicked ways and use them for His benefit if He desires to do so? Romans 8:28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. Like Mark stated, and to which you readily agreed, Jacob would have still received the blessing even without Rebekah’s involvement, one way or another. One thing to which Scripture doesn’t elaborate on is Isaac’s deeper thoughts during all of this. As Matthew Henry pointed out, it is conceivable that Isaac remembered the divine oracle and came to his senses. And since the Scriptures don’t point out, it is also conceivable that Isaac wasn’t aware of it. I find the latter hard to believe however. (Just my own personal opinion.) What is quite evident from the Scripture though, is that Isaac favored Esau. In His favoritism it is possible that he was blind to the will of God for a time. As pointed out elsewhere in Scripture, favoritism is not a desirable characteristic and can be harmful. Colossians 3:21 Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged. James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Isaac’s favoritism of Esau could have very well clouded his judgment and then he simply came to his senses and realized what had happened was God’s will, therefore, Jacob kept his blessing. Maybe I shouldn’t speculate, but I see a variety of life lessons learned from this particular incident with the heart of it being God’s sovereignty. WOS |
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462 | Does God love everybody? | Rom 8:39 | Wild Olive Shoot | 155059 | ||
Swerv, You stated: “His elect are those who reflect their love for God by obeying His commandments. This does not earn salvation but reveals to God our heart in wanting to serve and obey Him.” That statement is only partially true. Was Saul of Tarsus not God’s elect even though he persecuted the those of “the way”? Was Peter not God’s elect even though he denied the Lord three times? Was King David not God’s elect even though he committed adultery and murdered? Was Moses not God’s elect even though he disobeyed and was forbidden to enter the Promised Land? Was Jacob not God’s elect even though he lied to his father and deceived him to receive his blessing? Do those actions reflect their love for God or obedience? God’s elect were chosen before they had a chance to choose to be obedient. (Eph 1:3,4) (2 Tim 2:19) (2 Thess 2:13). It is God’s sovereign choice who the elect shall be. (Rom 9:14-24) And in all of these we see it was based on nothing to do with our works, since yet, there were no works done. God did not set the elect because he foresaw them to be holy, God determined to make them so. You then said “No matter what - the people will be saved in the end at Jesus return - are those who keep His commandments.” We don’t keep His commandments. If we could obey and keep His commandments in their entirety, Jesus would not have had to willingly die in our place. It is through faith in Christ and what he accomplished on the cross that we are saved. Saying that we must keep the laws in order to be saved is not true in the least. Even under the Old Covenant it wasn’t adherence to the Law that saved, it was faith. The Law showed us that we couldn’t do it on our own. We are called to be obedient and our obedience does show just where our hearts are, but we are not saved simply because we keep his commandments. From the grace of God comes our salvation, freely given to us through faith in Jesus Christ. You also stated: “The only reason we have a New covenant is because fault was found with the people of the Old covenant because they could not keep the promises they made as part of the Old covenant.” The reason we have the New Covenant is because that was God’s plan all along. He didn’t decide one day that he needs to adjust His perfectly eternal plan to suite the wickedness of men. We can’t keep the commandments either. If fault is going to be placed, you had better place it on us as well. Christ’s atonement was for sins past present and future. I found the following, which I hope helps you to address your statement: “The question we then must ask ourselves is what laws did God put in our heart for us to obey. Although, the covenant has changed from Old to New - God still wants us to obey His laws which instead of being written on stone - are now written on our hearts.” “Written in their hearts - The revealed Law of God was written on tables of stone, and then recorded in the books of the Old Testament. This law the Gentiles did not possess, but, to a certain extent, the same requirements were written on their hearts. Though not revealed to them as to the Jews, yet they had obtained the knowledge of them by the tight of nature. The word “hearts” here denotes the mind itself, as it does also frequently in the Sacred Scriptures; not the heart, as the seat of the affections. It does not mean that they loved or even approved of the Law, but that they had knowledge of it; and that that knowledge was deeply engraved on their minds. Their conscience - This word properly means the judgment of the mind respecting right and wrong; or the judgment which the mind passes on the morality or immorality of its own actions, when it instantly approves or condemns them. It has usually been termed the moral sense, and is a very important principle in a moral government. Its design is to answer the purposes of an ever attendant witness of a man’s conduct; to compel him to pronounce on his own doings, and thus to excite him to virtuous deeds, to give comfort and peace when he does right, to deter from evil actions by making him, whether he will or no, his own executioner: see Joh_8:9; Act_23:1; Act_24:16; Rom_9:1; 1Ti_1:5. By nature every man thus approves or condemns his own acts; and there is not a profounder principle of the divine administration, than thus compelling every man to pronounce on the moral character of his own conduct. Conscience may be enlightened or unenlightened; and its use may be greatly perverted by false opinions. Its province is not to communicate any new truth, it is simply to express judgment, and to impart pleasure or inflict pain for a man’s own good or evil conduct. The apostle’s argument, does not require him to say that conscience revealed any truth, or any knowledge of duty, to the Gentiles, but that its actual exercise proved that they had a knowledge of the Law of God. Thus, it was a witness simply of that fact.” – Matthew Henry WOS |
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463 | Does God love everybody? | Rom 8:39 | Wild Olive Shoot | 155027 | ||
I disagree with this on many levels. Since when and where in Scripture does it state that man and our actions dictate God's perfect plan? Where does it also state we must "earn" salvation? And another, just what do you perceive the elect to be? WOS |
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464 | Walk through 1 John | 1 John 4:10 | Wild Olive Shoot | 155022 | ||
The epistle of 1 John: Among other thoughts, it calls us to truly examine ourselves to see where we really stand with our Lord and with each other. Arguably, it emphasizes love above all else. Love of God and love of others and gives us proofs in which to measure ourselves by. It as well lays out evidences of what we are called to do, what we may face in doing so and how we should expect to overcome it. As I’ve gone through it, I’ve delighted in the simplistic truths it puts forth. I’ve also realized that I fall very short of being a true disciple of our Lord. As the epistle points out, there is much progress for me to make in my continued walk in faith. With His help, I’m sure it will be accomplished. I can only pray. I wanted to share with the forum some of the truths I’ve taken from the epistle. It’s rather a condensed version and I’m sure I haven’t pulled out everything contained within its chapters, but for me this has proven to be a valuable walk. Thoughts I’ve come away with: Although we have not seen the physical Christ, we have the eyewitness testimony of those who did. We too are to proclaim to all the eternal life offered through Christ. (1 John 1:2; 5:5-13) We are to fellowship with Christ and with other believers as well. (1 John 1:3-7) We are to prove ourselves of fellowship by walking in His light. This would be obedience. Obedience is not only in His commands, but also that which is pleasing to Him. Anything less would be disobedience. (1 John 1:6:7 / 1 John 2:3,4; 3:18, 22-24; 5:2,3) We are called to know the truth and live that truth. (1 John 1:6-8) We are to recognize our sin rather than deny it. We are called to confess it to Him and seek His forgiveness. Rely on Christ for our purification. (1 John 1:8-10) We are called to be sinless. But we are to understand that when we do falter before a holy God, Christ and only Christ is our propitiation. (1 John 2:1,2; 3:4-6, 7-9; 5:18) Believe in the name of Jesus Christ and pattern our life after Him. Remove self-righteousness. We are to walk as our Lord did. (1 John 2:6; 3:23; 5:5, 20) We are to grow and progress spiritually in love, the old and new command. (1 John 2:7,8) (Leviticus 19:18) (John 13:34,35) We are to love God and one another as God loves us. Recognize that we are to value our brother’s soul as much as God does. This would also include helping our brothers when they are in error. Actively seeking to help our brothers out of love, which is selfless giving and prayer for those same. (1 John 2:9-11; 3:11-15; 16-20; 4:7-12; 4:19-21; 5:16,) We are called to be lights of the world. We most expose evil and error and anything not in compliance with God’s will, as we know it. (1 John 2:9-11) (Matthew 5:14-16) We are called to abstain from worldliness, both internally and externally. In doing so we should be actively practicing self-control, while possessing a spirit of generosity and a commitment to humble service. (1 John 2:15-17; 5:5) We are to recognize anti-christs, the false teachers that would lure us away from the truth. Test the spirits. (1 John 2:18,19; 3:7-10; 4:1-3) Recognize that the most hurtful lies are usually falsehoods and errors relating to the person of Christ as well as the offices of Christ. Rely on the Holy Spirit for all truth. (1 John 2:20-23; 26,27) We are to persevere. (1 John 2:24,25; 28; 3:1-3) Recognize and know others who belong to Christ. (1 John 2:29; 3:7-10; 4:6,13-16; 5:18) Realize that the world will hate those who belong to God. (1 John 3:13) Truthfully and continually examine ourselves to ensure we are Children of God. (1 John 3:19-24) Live in love and obedience and not fear and be confident come judgment. (1 John 4:17,18; 5:14,15) Rely on God to overcome the evils that we cannot on our own. (1 John 4:4; 5:18) Accept all who God has called into His family. (1 John 5:1,2) Refrain from idols, anything that keeps God from being our focus. (1 John 5:21) WOS |
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465 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | Wild Olive Shoot | 154984 | ||
Doc, I hope you have come to realize how much appreciate your words. If I was ever sorry for asking for your input it would only be because you have enlightened me on a subject in which I wasn’t really seeking to hear an honest answer. Thank you for the response. The inquiry I was curious of stemmed from 1. My own debate in trying to reconcile the work of Spirit with our “old” sinful nature. 2. Your response to HopeinHim which gave me the impression that a backslidden state was some sort of misconception. After reading, so far, the three responses, from you, Hank and Jlhetrick, I came to the realization that in essence, when we sin, we “back-slide” but we should not be setting up camp, so to speak, in that state or condition and that by the work of the Spirit we won’t be. Our call is to realize our sin and repent of it before that becomes a so-called permanent or lasting condition. The Holy Spirit enables us to accomplish that. I take that a backslidden condition is not one indicative of a Christian because we are to recognize it and take the appropriate actions to remove ourselves from it. But nonetheless, it seems to be an unavoidable and at times a very testing part of a Christian’s walk with Christ, or rather a departure or falling away from Christ, that can only be resolved through Him. So I think I now agree (although I couldn’t honestly disagree since I was still questioning it within myself) with the statement you gave to HopeinHim which was “I may be mistaken, but I do not see the the Bible accommodating such a definition of a disciple of Christ.” Unless of course, I am just way off base on this one, I feel the question I had has been thoroughly answered. Doc, I thank you for your input, I’ve come to value it, no matter “ my opinion or feeling”, on any given subject. And as always, feel free to proceed with anything you feel appropriate to convey. I’m listening and learning and deciphering the best I can and very much appreciate all that you and many others here on the forum have to share. Thank you brother. WOS |
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466 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | Wild Olive Shoot | 154983 | ||
Jlhetrick, Thank you for your comments. You really put the subject back into perspective for me. I do hold to the truth that once God seals us as His with His Holy Spirit, there is nothing we can do to shake off our salvation. The odd thing is, I think I separated the two and shouldn’t have. Funny how I seem to try and work out a subject and separate from everything else not realizing that one directly relates to the other. My point… In attempting to reconcile a backslidden state with what the Spirit will accomplish in us, I failed to take into consideration the fact that once we are saved, truly saved, we have that eternally. I was considering a backslidden state to be something of a period of time, a time in which we intentionally or unintentionally place a distance between God and ourselves, a span of time, not just an individual moment. But as Hank pointed out, every time we sin, it can be considered such a state because we sure don’t pull closer to Him in doing so. But the effect of that span, or moment, in which we do pull away, God can use to strengthen us. The Spirit accomplishes the same. The end result, we are sealed and assured of our salvation. Our obligation is to recognize our sin and repent of it. It is the Holy Spirit that will enable us to that. Thank you for the redirection, or pointing out my misdirection. It is very much appreciated. WOS |
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467 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | Wild Olive Shoot | 154982 | ||
Hank, I thank you for you comments and time. We haven’t interacted much and I hope that isn’t the case in the future. If anything, I try to be aware of what you post on the forum because I’ve seen that no matter what the subject is, your responses convey truth and honesty with a wealth of experience behind them from what seems to me, to be a faithful walk with our Lord. So please, feel free to share your thoughts with me anytime. I tend to pay more attention to those who been around a while longer than I have. I’ve learned there is much yet to learn from the elder generation if only the younger would spend some of their time and listen. We all need to spend more time listening to, as you put it, “grumpy and decrepit old codgers”. You have plenty to share I’m sure. Thank you for reinforcing that there is nothing greater than God. So great that when we do begin to fall away, He has the power to catch us and use the results of our sin to break us and make realize that we can’t do without Him and if we think we can, we are terribly mistaken. That’s what I get from the references to King David and Peter. We’ll never, no matter how hard we try, be able to accomplish salvation on our own because we will falter if choose to step away from the Lord and venture on our own. But by the grace of God, we’ll return and through His Son we’ll remain acceptable. I’ve come to the understanding that our happiness is proportionate to our holiness. The closer we walk with our Lord, the more blessed we will be and in ways not even imagined. I’ve seen that in my relatively short time as a Christian. Years I spent lost without calling on the Lord to save me, and there has since been a noticeable difference concerning my peace and comfort and happiness. My only regret… I refused early on to recognize that only through His grace can I be confident of my salvation. Thank God for His grace. Thank you Brother Hank. WOS |
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468 | Flesh or Spirit | Psalm | Wild Olive Shoot | 154964 | ||
Hi Doc, Would like your thoughts on, what I take as, the noticeable declension of the church in Ephesus (Revelation 2:4,5) compared to the so-called “backslidden” state. I’m really glad this subject came up. I’m currently studying 1 John and am having difficulties reconciling the fact that we do indeed sin, even with what the Holy Spirit does accomplish within us. From 1 John specifically, I come to an understanding that the Spirit of God works to the same result in all circumstances and that He can in no case produce un-holiness. Outside of this epistle you find reference to “quenching the Spirit” as in 1 Thessalonians 5:19. But even within the epistle I come to the conclusion that we receive a new nature at regeneration but keep remnants of the old. Could that, along with the rebuke given to the Church in Ephesus in Revelation, be indicative to the possibility of a backslidden condition within a Christian’s life? We are warned numerous times to beware of those who would lead us astray and arguably, it seems we can “forsake our first love” to a “degree” of falling away. Or is this a complete falling away from Christ? I get the sense, and I’m posting for the purpose of some sort of guidance here because I’m just really not sure, that there may be simply a temporary backslidden state to which we can repent of? Would really like to get everyone’s take on this. WOS |
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469 | Can you prove 'a' god exists? | Bible general Archive 2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154798 | ||
I think one of the greater proofs of God’s existence is the display of great opposition to it. How can one oppose that which does not exist? The greatest proof however, is Jesus himself and the eyewitness accounts of Him and who He was that we have in our Holy Scripture that have endured every argument that man could raise against them and survived every attempt made to break them. Add to that our conscience of knowing right and wrong and the proof continues to mount. God has revealed Himself to every man. The rejection of those who refuse to see or submit to the evidence that God has provided is proof in itself. I believe it is a “belief or a concept” that there is no God out of blatant refusal to identify with God, not that evidence and proof is lacking but rather faith is lacking. Therefore, for man to prove God’s existence, there must first be an establishment of faith in God within the one in which you are attempting to prove God’s existence. The evidence or proof is not lacking rather it is rejected and consequently, that very faith is a gift from the same God who has been rejected and in whom there is no belief and therefore faith is withheld. One who sees the truths of God’s existence and willfully denies them has no faith. There is nothing that man can do to convince him otherwise. But that doesn’t mean the proof is lacking. It simply shows our ignorance in accepting the truth. The proof is there, the very message of God is among us. Prior to that God walked among us. What more proof can one need? WOS |
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470 | Purpose of John's baptism? | Luke 3:3 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154777 | ||
Dalcent, Do not add works to our salvation. Our good works are a by-product of our faith and proof of our fellowship with Christ and Baptism is indeed a proof and profession of our faith in Christ but is not a required "part or piece" of the salvation process. I disagree with your faith plus Baptism equals salvation stance. The following is my view as posted in post numbers 151719 and 151715. It was addressed to another forum user, but it applies here as well. Note: Nick, You need to take your own advice in which you quoted Matthew 22:29: “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God” Read Ephesians 2:8-9. Seams to me that you boast you are saved due to some kind of work in which you did. Understand that the power of God means the power of God. Your salvation is not dependant on anything you do for which to earn it by. It is a gift.-- post 151715 Note: "Furthermore, let me refer you to the following verses, keeping in mind when you read them that Scripture does not contradict itself: John 3:16 Titus 3:5 If Baptism is a requirement for salvation, then please explain the following: 1 Corinthians 1:14 1 Corinthians 1:17 So the cross of Christ does not have the power? Is that what you claim? How about the following verses in The Gospel of John alone, in which we are told to “believe”, and never once does it mention being baptized: John 1:12 John 3:16 John 3:18 John 3:36 John 5:24 John 11:25-26 John 12:44 John 20:31 Also realize the following with Mark 16:16: “Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” Only the first half of that verse speaks of belief and baptism. The second half only speaks of belief. It does NOT say, “but whoever does not believe or is not baptized will be condemned.” Baptism is a step in obedience, and an important one. However YOU cannot make it a requirement."-- post 151719. Our salvation rests wholly on God's grace through faith in Christ. WOS |
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471 | Be blessed | Acts 10:38 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154730 | ||
C.S.M., I believe Doc has some very valid points. Maybe the following will help. Harper’s Bible Dictionary sin, …The concept of sin is first and foremost a religious concept, because all sin is ultimately against God, God’s laws, God’s creation, God’s covenant, and God’s purposes. It is the basic corrupting agent in the entire universe. There are numerous Hebrew and Greek words used to designate sin in the biblical writings. Perhaps the most basic is a Hebrew word meaning ‘revolt’ or ‘transgression’ and indicating a deliberate act of defiance against God. This idea lies at the heart of the Genesis account of the beginning of sin (Gen. 3:1-7), where the essential problem lies in the desire of the humans to ‘be like God.’ All sin is an act of idolatry, the attempt to replace the Creator with someone or something else, usually one’s own self or one’s own creation. Paul understood this very well, as he indicates in Rom. 1:18-3:20: all humankind lies under condemnation because all are idolators of one type or another. Manifestations: …There is sin that is characterized by falling short of God’s requirements or ‘missing the mark’; there are cultic sins (failure to observe the ritual requirements), political and social sins, and ‘spiritual’ sins (e.g., envy, hate, etc.). In the nt, there is the ‘unforgiveable’ sin (against the Holy Spirit), which, in modern terms, might be paraphrased as an attitude or mind-set wherein a person willfully refuses to accept the forgiveness of sin offered by God through his Son (Matt. 12:22-32; Mark 3:19b-30; Luke 12:8-10; cf. also 1 John 5:16-17). There is sin implicit in the failure of a person to do right, especially toward one’s fellow human beings (e.g., Matt. 25:31-46; Luke 16:19-31), the failure of a person to use God-given ability (e.g., Matt. 25:14-30; Luke 19:12-26), and there is sin even in ignorance, where one commits unconscious or inadvertent sin (e.g., Lev. 5). Perhaps the most heinous sins are those done ‘with a high hand’ (i.e., deliberately and arrogantly; e.g., Num. 15:30-31) and the sin of hypocrisy, especially among ‘religious’ persons (e.g., Matt. 23; Acts 5:1-11). Universality: …The ot prophets, for example, located the source of sin in the ‘heart,’ i.e., in the very depth of one’s being, the seat of volition and action (e.g., especially Jer. 5:23; 17:9-10; cf. Ezek. 36:26; Isa. 29:13). In the nt, Paul insists that ‘all people, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin’ (Rom. 3:9; cf. 1:18-3:20; 5:12-21). The words of the author of 1 John rise up in the face of any notion that sin can be totally overcome and avoided in this world: ‘If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. …If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us’ (1:8-10). Origin: As for the origin of sin, the ot writings have very little to say about the matter, the story in Genesis 3 being the only passage to speak directly to this issue. During the intertestamental period (ca. the last three centuries b.c.), however, many ideas were prevalent about the origin of sin. Most of the speculation focused on the story in Genesis 3 and the additional story in Gen. 6:1-4 about divine creatures having intercourse with human women. As a result of the development of later religious thinking regarding demons and Satan, many linked sin to an outside power that forced its way into the human situation. Others believed that humans were born with conflicting ‘inclinations,’ one toward good and one toward evil. These inclinations were constantly struggling to obtain controlling influence in each person’s life. In the nt, Paul related the sinful condition of the human race to the original transgression of Adam, insisting at the same time, however, that the result of sin (death) ‘spread to all people’ not simply because of Adam’s sin but ‘because all people sinned’ (Rom. 5:12). Satan, the English transliteration of a Hebrew word whose literal meaning is ‘adversary.’ The figure of Satan is found in only three places in the ot, and all of these are postexilic in date (i.e., after 538 b.c.): Job 1-2; Zech. 3:1-2; and 1 Chron. 21:1. In the first two instances (Job 1-2; Zech. 3:1-2), Satan is depicted as a member of God’s court whose basic duty it was to ‘accuse’ human beings before God. He is clearly not at this point an enemy of God and the leader of the demonic forces of evil, as he becomes later. There is some question as to whether, in 1 Chron. 21:1, a specific personality is being described as in Job and Zechariah, or whether the ‘adversary’ is to be understood here as a general tendency toward evil. In the Hebrew text, there is no definite article with the noun ‘Satan,’ and the word is probably best translated simply as ‘an adversary.’ In either case, the figure in 1 Chronicles is not yet the embodiment of evil. It should be noted that ‘the serpent’ of Genesis 3 is never in the ot identified as Satan. WOS |
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472 | Hate Esau, hate us? | Rom 8:39 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154716 | ||
Doc, Thanks. It does sound like a study that I would find enjoyable and enlightening. I’ll do that. By the way, it’s my pleasure to be able to participate in a forum in which the Word can be conveyed and discussed and learned from by others who desire the same. I’ve definitely matured the short time I’ve been here and I honestly thank God for allowing forums such as this to remain active as well everyone else for their help and willingness to share. WOS |
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473 | Hate Esau, hate us? | Rom 8:39 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154642 | ||
Doc, Not anything close to being in depth, only enough to know a little of the line of descendants. Any recommended resources? WOS |
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474 | Hate Esau, hate us? | Rom 8:39 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154639 | ||
I thought this was interesting. Some of Matthew Henry’s commentary from Malachi 1:1-5 addressing Jacob and Esau. "Let them see what a difference God had made between Jacob and Esau. Esau was Jacob's brother, his twin-brother: “Yet I loved Jacob and I hated Esau, that is, took Jacob into covenant, and entailed the blessing on him and his, but refused and rejected Esau.” Note, Those that are taken into covenant with God, that have the lively oracles and the means of grace committed to them, have reason to look upon these as tokens of his love. Jacob is loved, for he has these, Esau hated, for he has not. The apostle quotes this (Rom_9:13), and compares it with what the oracle said to Rebecca concerning her twins (Gen_25:23), The elder shall serve the younger, to illustrate the doctrine of God's sovereignty in dispensing his favours; for may he not do what he will with his own? Esau was justly hated, but Jacob freely loved; even so, Father, because it seemed good in thy eyes, and it is not for us to ask why or wherefore. The Edomites shall be made the monuments of God's justice, and he will be glorified in their utter destruction: For Esau have I hated; I laid his mountains waste, the mountains of Seir, which were his heritage. When all that part of the world was ravaged by the Chaldean army the country of Edom was, among the rest, laid in ruins, and became a habitation for the dragons of the wilderness, so perfectly desolate was it; as was foretold, Isa_34:6, Isa_34:11. The Edomites had triumphed in Jerusalem's overthrow (Psa_137:7), and therefore it was just with God to put the same cup of trembling into their hands. And, though Edom's ruins were last, yet they were lasting, and the desolation perpetual; and in this the difference was made between Jacob and Esau, and is made between the righteous and the wicked, to whom otherwise all things come alike, and there seems to be one event. Jacob's cities are laid waste, but they are rebuilt; Edom's are laid waste, and never rebuilt. The sufferings of the righteous will have an end and will end well; all their grievances will be redressed, and their sorrow turned into joy; but the sufferings of the wicked will be endless and remediless, as Edom's desolations, Mal_1:4. Note, Those that walk contrary to God will find that he will walk contrary to them; for who ever hardened his heart against God and prospered? When the Jews had rejected Christ and his gospel they became Edomites, and this word was fulfilled in them; for when, in the time of the emperor Adrian, they attempted to rebuild Jerusalem, God by earthquakes and eruptions of fire threw down what they built, so that they were forced to quit the enterprise. Secondly, They shall be looked upon by all as abandoned to utter ruin. All that see them shall call them the border of wickedness, a sinful nation, incurably so, and therefore the people against whom the Lord has indignation for ever. Since their wickedness is such as will never be reformed, their desolations shall be such as are never to be repaired. Against Israel God was a little displeased (Zec_1:15), but against Edom he has indignation, and will have for ever, for they are the people of his curse, Isa_34:5. The Israelites shall be made the monuments of his mercy, and he will be glorified in their salvation, Mal_1:5. “The Edomites shall be stigmatized as a people hated of God, but your eyes shall see your doubts concerning his love to you for ever silenced; for you shall say, and have cause to say, The Lord is and will be magnified from the border of Israel, from every part and border of the land of Israel.” The border of Edom is a border of wickedness, and therefore the Lord will have indignation against it for ever; but the border of Israel is a border of holiness, the border of the sanctuary (Psa_78:54), and therefore God will make it to appear (though it may for a time lie desolate) that he has mercy in store for it, and thence he will be magnified; he will give his people Israel both cause, and hearts, to praise him. When the border of Edom still remains desolate, and the border of Israel is repaired and replenished, then it will appear that God has loved Jacob." – Matthew Henry WOS |
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475 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154590 | ||
2Fedex, No criticism. I promise. I would just like to point out a couple of things to you, if I may, in response to your post to humbledbyhisgrace since it will follow up my response to you earlier also. You said: “but we must not discount people too quickly when they ask questions that require physical proof(Jesus certainly didn't seem terribly offended by the Apostles wanting to touch Him)” John 20:29 Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, do you now believe (trust, have faith)? Blessed and happy and to be envied are those who have never seen Me and yet have believed and adhered to and trusted and relied on Me. See, we weren’t going to get the hands on proof (and didn’t get it) that the disciples were privileged to receive. But we did get the Holy Spirit and Scriptures. You also state: “but how can a person who is apparently lost and without the Holy Spirit to illuminate them know what a particular verse means?” Romans 15:4 For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 1 Thessalonians 1:5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake. We can’t give anyone the Holy Spirit we can only point them to the Scriptures. And then you stated: “God knows our hearts and can and will provide all we need to have faith.” Romans 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. We need faith. That’s why I asked where faith fit into a certain line of reasoning. Without faith why would anyone believe? And where can we get that faith? We get it from God through hearing His message. That’s why I know that the Bible can be used to prove God’s existence to someone who does not believe, because it contains God’s message to us and we cannot concoct anything better than that. If we are seeking the truth, we’ll find it in Christ. We’ll find the eyewitness accounts of Christ in the Bible. Luke 11:9,10: 9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. My point is this: If one is truly and honestly seeking the truth, they’ll find it in Scripture. We can only lead them that far and then God will do the rest. That's all I wanted to point out. In love WOS |
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476 | cursing? | Luke 6:28 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154581 | ||
Javelin I would rather not dignify that with anything other than I think it best we end our discussion, you and I. I feel you’re misrepresenting the Word and using it out of context, you feel your not. Let’s leave it at that. Peace to you WOS |
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477 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154543 | ||
I agree there are valid questions that should be answered, but why the need rule out the use of Scripture? Javelin stated in post #154487: “Using the bible to prove God's existence is circular reasoning.” That would indicate that it is futile to use the Bible to prove God’s existence and I disagree with that. I don’t dissuade the use of extra-biblical material in answering valid questions so long as their sources are validated by the God-inspired scriptures. You seem to hold Paul’s epistles in high regard, so let us look at what Paul wrote concerning the subject. A look into 1 Corinthians 1 (vs 20-23 specifically) shows us that Paul, when preaching, in fact preached Christ crucified. 20Where is the wise man (the philosopher)? Where is the scribe (the scholar)? Where is the investigator (the logician, the debater) of this present time and age? Has not God shown up the nonsense and the folly of this world's wisdom? 21For when the world with all its earthly wisdom failed to perceive and recognize and know God by means of its own philosophy, God in His wisdom was pleased through the foolishness of preaching [salvation, procured by Christ and to be had through Him], to save those who believed (who clung to and trusted in and relied on Him). 22For while Jews [demandingly] ask for signs and miracles and Greeks pursue philosophy and wisdom, 23We preach Christ (the Messiah) crucified, [preaching which] to the Jews is a scandal and an offensive stumbling block [that springs a snare or trap], and to the Gentiles it is absurd and utterly unphilosophical nonsense. Where in fact do we learn the truth about Christ’s crucifixion and what it means to us? That would be the Bible. Why did Paul in all his godly wisdom choose to preach this way? Matthew Henry explains it this way: “Paul had been bred up in Jewish learning; but the plain preaching of a crucified Jesus, was more powerful than all the oratory and philosophy of the heathen world. This is the sum and substance of the gospel. Christ crucified is the foundation of all our hopes, the fountain of all our joys. And by his death we live. The preaching of salvation for lost sinners by the sufferings and death of the Son of God, if explained and faithfully applied, appears foolishness to those in the way to destruction. The sensual, the covetous, the proud, and ambitious, alike see that the gospel opposes their favourite pursuits. But those who receive the gospel, and are enlightened by the Spirit of God, see more of God's wisdom and power in the doctrine of Christ crucified, than in all his other works. God left a great part of the world to follow the dictates of man's boasted reason, and the event has shown that human wisdom is folly, and is unable to find or retain the knowledge of God as the Creator. It pleased him, by the foolishness of preaching, to save them that believe. By the foolishness of preaching; not by what could justly be called foolish preaching. But the thing preached was foolishness to wordly-wise men. The gospel ever was, and ever will be, foolishness to all in the road to destruction. The message of Christ, plainly delivered, ever has been a sure touchstone by which men may learn what road they are travelling. But the despised doctrine of salvation by faith in a crucified Saviour, God in human nature, purchasing the church with his own blood, to save multitudes, even all that believe, from ignorance, delusion, and vice, has been blessed in every age. And the weakest instruments God uses, are stronger in their effects, than the strongest men can use. Not that there is foolishness or weakness in God, but what men consider as such, overcomes all their admired wisdom and strength.” John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way and the Truth and the Life; no one comes to the Father except by (through) Me. When we witness, we need to witness Christ, who leads to God. Man has a funny way of making God become anything he wants Him to become, to satisfy his own mind. In pointing the lost to Christ, they’ll come to the Father in the way of proper understanding the way they need to. You must have faith in Christ to begin that journey. We have a true eyewitness account of our Lord given by the Gospels, the Bible. I also disagree that faith completes our journey to salvation. Our journey is complete when we are glorified with Christ when He returns. When that happens, I’ll no longer need faith, for then, I will see Him face to face. WOS |
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478 | Where should I turn?????? | Bible general Archive 2 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154536 | ||
Javelin, Just a question if I may... You said: "You can preach as you say til the cows come home and no one will listen unless what you say can be proven." Where does faith fit into your line of reasoning? Hebrews 11 1NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses]. 2For by [faith--trust and holy fervor born of faith] the men of old had divine testimony borne to them and obtained a good report. 3By faith we understand that the worlds [during the successive ages] were framed (fashioned, put in order, and equipped for their intended purpose) by the word of God, so that what we see was not made out of things which are visible. WOS |
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479 | cursing? | Luke 6:28 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154534 | ||
Javelin, I’m simply trying to make some sense of what it is you are trying to convey. Be assured, if someone has questions concerning your posts on this forum, chances are very good, there are others. You post under the guise of a “helpful Christian, or xtian” but you have generally lacked any kind of scriptural support for what you refer to many times as “your own personal experiences”. It appears to me that when you are asked a question or to validate a claim, you’re quick to go on the defensive and your defensive posture dances around the issue or question, and you offer nothing to substantiate your claims or subsequent queries, akin to the characteristics of a well trained politician. The words I used in developing my question to you, were your words, taken from different posts on the same subject. I didn’t twist your words. I simply put them together, as one would do when following a thread on this forum, in an attempt to understand your position on the subject. The words you used were very confusing and I simply asked for clarification. I think that is a tolerable practice on this forum? I beg to differ with you on the point that Paul pronounced curses on fellow Christians in the scriptures you reference. In Galatians 1: “8But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!” Paul condemns those who would pervert the true gospel. Then concerning 1 Corinthians 16: “22If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed Maranatha.” Accursed are those who do not love the Lord. So please tell me, what Christians do you know who would purposely pervert the Gospel or do not have the love for the Lord in their hearts. You point them out and I’ll hold fast to the opinion, they are not true Christians. Therefore, we cannot claim that Paul pronounced curses on fellow Christians. So again, I ask you, where do you find it acceptable for Christians to utter curses against other Christians, or use witchcraft, as you yourself previously defined it, that is aligned with God’s will? You yourself said 99 percent of those are not aligned with God’s will and then reiterate the fact that there are some that are as in your last post as you stated… “However when most people pray prayers of "cursing" or control against their fellow xtians they are totally out of line and acting in a purely selfish way.” So please tell me where we find in the word of God that as Christians, we are told it is acceptable to pronounce certain curses on the brethren. From your position and defense thereof, apparently it is there somewhere. If I am in the wrong for asking you to clarify a position and to support it with sound scripture, let the forum say so and I’ll oblige them by ending my inquiries. I’m here to learn more about Word of God as others are. I feel I’m in line with forum guidelines in asking you to clarify, so please do. WOS |
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480 | cursing? | Luke 6:28 | Wild Olive Shoot | 154506 | ||
Javelin, In two separate posts you make the following statements: “IMO 99 percent of curses uttered by Xtians are totally outside of God's will as the scripture, as noted, teaches the contrary.” Post no. 154484 and then… “Witchcraft like that is basically defined as, "attempting to use supernatural means to acheive one's own ends with others" "When xtians do it the supernatural means is God, though God will have nothing to do with it - except perhaps turning it on our own dumb heads to teach us a lesson!" Post no 154501 So you are saying there are Christians that ask God to perform witchcraft and there is 1 percent that is within God will? Very dangerous words, I would say, and would like to see some scriptural support for that. WOS |
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