Results 41 - 60 of 1251
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Results from: Notes Author: mark d seyler Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165578 | ||
Hi Kalos, Luke 21:8-36 (8) And He said, Watch that you not be led astray. For many will come on My name, saying, I AM! Also, The time has come! Do not go after them. (9) And when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be afraid. For these things must first occur, but the end is not at once. (10) Then He said to them, Nation will be lifted up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. (11) Also there will be great earthquakes from place to place, and famines, and plagues. And also there will be terrors and great signs from Heaven. (12) But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you, and will persecute you, delivering you into the synagogues and prisons, being led away before kings and governors on account of My name. (13) But it will return to you for a testimony. (14) Then put into your hearts not to premeditate to make a defense. (15) For I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all those opposing you will not be able to withstand or contradict. (16) But you will be betrayed also by parents, and brothers, and relatives, and friends. And they will put some of you to death. (17) And you will be hated by all because of My name. (18) And a hair of your head shall in no way perish. (19) By your patience you will gain your souls. (20) And when you see Jerusalem being encircled by armies, then recognize that its destruction has come near. (21) Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains; and those in its midst, let them go out. And those in the open spaces, let them not go into her. (22) For these are days of vengeance when all things that have been written are to be fulfilled. (23) But woe to the pregnant women, and the ones suckling in those days; for great distress will be on the earth and wrath on this people. (24) And they will fall by the mouth of the sword and will be led captive to all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by nations, until the times of the nations are fulfilled. (25) And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars. And on the earth will be anxiety of nations with bewilderment, roaring of sea and of surf, (26) men fainting from fear, and expectation of the things coming on the earth. For the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (27) And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and much glory. Dan. 7:13 (28) But these things beginning to happen, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near. (29) And He spoke a parable to them: You see the fig tree and all the trees. (30) Now when they sprout leaves, seeing it, you will know from yourselves that now the summer is near. (31) So also when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. (32) Truly I say to you, In no way will this generation pass away until all these things shall occur. (33) The heaven and the earth will pass away, but My Words will not pass away, never! (34) But take heed to yourselves that your hearts not be loaded down with headaches, and drinking, and anxieties of life, and that day come suddenly upon you (35) as a snare, for it will come in on all those sitting on the face of all the earth. Isa. 24:17 (36) Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man. (LITV) In Jesus' teaching recorded in Luke 21, as Jesus answers His disciple's questions regarding the end of the age, we see: 2 verses of preliminary signs (8-9) 2 verses of signs and judgments (10-11) 13 verses describing the persecution that is to come (12-24) 2 verses describing more signs of the end times (24-26) 1 verse about Jesus coming in glory (27) 7 verses about the certainty of these prophecies being fulfilled, and what our response should be (28-35) and then Jesus says this: Luke 21:36 Then be watchful at every time, begging that you be counted worthy to escape all these things, the things being about to happen, and to stand before the Son of Man. (LITV) What portion of this chapter would Jesus have been refering to by "all these things"? Would it be the "these things" of vss. 9 and 12? Perhaps the "all things" of vs. 22? In vs 28 He tells us when "these things" BEGIN to happen, our redemption is near. I think I know what Jesus means by "all these things." I think He means "all these things". What do you think? How do we escape them? By dying before they occur? But what would being counted worthy have to do with dying, which everybody does. On the otherhand, there is a time coming when Jesus will remove those who are His. I pray that we will, each of us, be counted worthy, that we may escape these things, as Jesus recommends. Love in Christ, Mark |
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42 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165580 | ||
Hi Ocelot, Rev 1:7 refers to Jesus' coming, but says nothing about the rapture. Matt 24:27 again, says nothing about the rapture. Matt 24:31 does mention a gathering, so I will look at that later. 2 Peter 3:10 and 12 again do not mention anything about the rapture. Paul makes a strong point to the Thessalonians to remember his teachings, 2 Th 2:5 "Do you not remember that I told you these things, I yet being with you?" These opening verses of 2 Thess 2 do not address the manner in which the rapture comes, but simply whether or not it had come. Paul is not saying "don't worry, you'll know when it comes because no one will not notice that it has happened." This would have been an easy argument to make, however, Paul does not make it. What he does respond with is the sequence of events, saying "don't you remember what I told you?" So Paul is not emphasizing HOW the rapture happens, but WHEN the rapture happens. I am not saying whether or not the rapture is "secret", I am not aware of any passages of Scripture that actually address that question. Regarding the "gathering of the elect": Mat 24:29 “And immediately after the affliction of those days the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give her light, and the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the land will wail. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and much glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens to their ends.” Mar 13:27 And then He will send His angels and will gather His elect from the four winds, from the end of earth to the end of heaven. These passages in Matthew and Mark are often mistaken to be describing the rapture of the church. The following passage possitively indentifies itself as pertaining to the church: 1Th 4:16 “Because the Lord Himself shall come down from Heaven with a commanding shout of an archangel's voice, and with God's trumpet. And the dead in Christ will rise again first. 17 Then we who remain alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to a meeting with the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.” In the rapture, Jesus comes down from heaven, an archangel gives a commanding shout, and the sounding of God’s trumpet. Those who sleep in Christ actually return With Jesus, to now enjoy thier physical resurrection, and those alive at the time are caught up with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. In the gathering together in Matthew and Mark, Jesus sends His angels to gather His elect, or chosen. The two events have several dissimilar aspects. Combine that with the many statements that no one will know the day or the hour. And yet we know that Jesus will return in glory 2520 days after the beginning of the Seventieth Week, 1260 days after the abomination that causes desolation, means that when He comes in glory, those on the earth will be able to mark their calenders with the day. These facts are irreconcilable unless we are talking about two separate events. What reason do we have to think that the elect, spoken of here, are the church, which had not been revealed at the time Jesus taught these things? The elect referred to would be the very same ones always referred to as the elect up until this time, Israel. There are a number of prophecies in the Old Testament of God gathering all of Israel into the land, believing, saved, never to be cast out again. These are specific prophecies to national Israel. Why would this passage in Matthew not be adressing the fulfillment of those prophecies, which will not be fulfilled until Jesus shows Himself to the Jews, "and they will look upon Me Who they have pierced", after He has come in glory? There are too many unanswerable questions when considering anything other than the pre-tribulation rapture, yet no question remains unanswered from the pre-trib view, at least of those things the Scriptures reveal. Love in Christ, Mark |
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43 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165583 | ||
Hi Kalos, How can you possibly have expectancy without immenency? Mar 13:33 Watch! Be wakeful, and pray. For you do not know when the time is. Mar 13:34 As a man going away, leaving his house, and giving his slaves authority, and to each his work (and he commanded the doorkeeper, that he watch), Mar 13:35 then you watch, for you do not know when the lord of the house is coming, at evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrowing, or early; Mar 13:36 so that he may not come suddenly and find you sleeping. Mar 13:37 And what I say to you, I say to all. Watch! The doorkeeper knows that the master is not returning suddenly if he knows that the master will come only after the newspaper slaps the porch. He does not have to watch for the returning master. He only needs to start watching once he hears the whump of the daily news. Just as the one who believes that Jesus will not come until after the abomination of desolation, for instance. They only need start watching for Jesus once they have seen the abomination standing in the Holy Place. And so imminence IS clearly taugh in the doctrine of expectancy. Because expectancy relies on imminence, and to try to remove imminence from expectancy makes expectancy no longer expectant. Love in Christ, Mark |
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44 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165586 | ||
Hi Kalos, Israel IS back in the land, and the Antichrist may well be on the scene. There is no reason to think that the rapture could not happen today, and agreement confirmed, and the antichrist revealed. Let Israel make a deal with the devil, let Gog and Magog and Persia attack Israel, and the world will see the wrath of God. We are so very close! :-) Regarding times past, have you ever wondered WHY Daniel's prophecies were sealed until the time of the end? They are integral to having a correct understanding of these things, as we know today. And how does Pre-tribulationism make the the beast's persecution of the elect to be the wrath of God? This is a straw-man argument. Just because God is judging the earth with great wrath doesn't mean that the devil couldn't be pretty mad about how things are going for him! Because God is inflicting devastating plagues upon the earth, not everything that happens will be the result of those plagues. Just as we all bear personal responsibility for what we do, so the devil shall bear the guilt for his crimes, even if he does commit them while God is actively judging the earth. I hope this clarifies what is, again, a classic "straw-man" argument. Love in Christ, Mark There will be a time when Satan will persecute the elect, particularly the Jews, but certainly the gentile believers also |
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45 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165589 | ||
Hi Kalos, Considering the following scriptures: Dan 7:25 And he shall speak words against the Most High, and he shall wear out the saints of the Most High. And he intends to change times and law. And they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and one half time. Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end. Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a corner of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator. Rev 13:5 And a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies was given to it. And authority to act forty two months was given to it. Rev 13:6 And it opened its mouth in blasphemy toward God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, and those tabernacling in Heaven. Rev 13:7 And it was given to it "to war with the saints, and to overcome them." And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation. Dan. 7:21 Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth, and their armies being assembled to make war with the One sitting on the horse, and with His army. Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with this one the false prophet doing signs before it, by which he led astray those having received the mark of the beast, and those worshiping its image. The two were thrown alive into the Lake of Fire burning with brimstone. Knowing that this final 7 year "week" will be characturized by two halves of 3.5 years each (42 months, 1260 days), and that in this second half, the saints shall be given over to the beast that he would overcome them, but that this beast's authority would be taken away when Jesus returns to earth to rule at the end of this 3.5 years, seven years to the day of when it began, how is it that Jesus would say that no man would know the DAY or the hour? Mat 24:36 But as to that day and that hour, no one knows, neither the angels of Heaven, except My Father only. Mat 25:13 Therefore, watch, for you do not know the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man comes. Mar 13:32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father. These scriptures would become untrue as soon as the Seventieth Week began, and doubly so following the Abomination of Desolation. That would not be the case if in fact the coming, of which no man knows the day or hour, had occured by the time these other things happened. Love in Christ, Mark |
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46 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165591 | ||
Hi Kalos, Doesn't the "pre-wrath" rapture view necessitate a "two-stage" coming? If Jesus returns in the sky, and raptures the church before judging the earth in His wrath, and then, following the completion of His wrath, actually lands on the earth, does He just kind of hang out in the sky during this time of wrath? After all, the 5th trumpet alone is 5 months in duration. The trumpets and bowls are all called plagues, and the bowls are the last seven plagues, and in them God's wrath is completed. So the trumpets and bowls are all the wrath of God, they are inseparable. There must be quite a few months between this "pre-wrath" rapture, and Jesus' actual arrival on the Mount of Olives. Wouldn't you say that this is a common feature shared by both the pre-trib and pre-wrath views? And to say that the idea of a "two-stage" coming isn't right disagrees with the pre-wrath view in exactly the same way as the pre-trib? Love in Christ Mark |
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47 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165593 | ||
Hi Kalos, There is no difficulty in undstanding any text related to this subject seeing the parousia and the epiphaneia of Christ separately, especially considering how "erchomai" is used as well. Oh, and these angels in Revelation that are dressed the same as those who follow Jesus, one even calls himself one of John's brethren, who also has the testimony of Jesus. How do you know that these are not men? "Angel" does not specifically mean a type of heavenly being, it means messenger. And men are messengers also. These things notwithstanding, just because we are called the "bride of Christ" does not mean that we will be limp-wristed girly men. We will be conformed the image of Christ. Think about what it means, for a moment, to be conformed to the image of Christ. We will be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might! :-) But that aside, it's not like He's going to let anyone else, angel, man, or little girl, do this fighting. He will slay His enemies with the brightness of His appearing, and with the sword that comes out of His mouth. Which brings to mind another thought. 2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: If the antichrist, that lawless one, will be destroyed by the brightness of the Lords appearing, and the Lord's appearing is before the wrath is poured out, then how is it that the antichrist is still there after all the months of wrath? Love in Christ, Mark |
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48 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165595 | ||
Hi John, Thank you for clarifying this for me. Do you suppose that the sola group people were simply unaware of this? Love in Christ, Mark |
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49 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165596 | ||
To all: If you are interested in reading an approx 10,000 word article showing a solid Biblical foundation for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, please e-mail me at markdseyler@yahoo.com. Whether you wish to merely see the information, or if you wish to question its merits, I would enjoy hearing from any of you. Love in Christ, Mark |
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50 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165597 | ||
Hi Kalos, Thank you for providing these quotes against which I can test my understanding. God bless you, brother! Love in Christ, Mark |
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51 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165602 | ||
Hi Kalos, I am not aware of the exact manuscript evidence for "strength". My sources tell me that the Byzantine, Majority, and Received Texts all show "be counted worthy". Only the Alexandrian shows "have strength", so this would indicate to me that probibly 2 percent or less of extant manuscripts would say "have strength". Your quote of the Good News certainly takes some liberties with the text, either way! Did you know that while we do not have any early Greek manuscripts of the commonly used types (Byzantine, Majority), at least not as old as the few Alexandrian which we do have, we have literally thousands of Versions (texts in other languages), quotes, and lectionaries that are as old, and older, even two hundred years earlier? And did you know that these versions can be divided into these same textual families as the Greek manuscripts? The upshot of this is that we can know that all these variations occured from the very beginning. It was not so much a matter of errors creeping in and being carried on down thru the centuries, oh, there was some of that, to be sure, but there was a lot of error introduced to some manuscripts right away. Doesn't sound very kosher! Being older isn't equal to being better. There is a much larger body of evidence for the Byzantine and Majority (which are nearly identical) manuscript families than there is for the Alexandrian, even with its few older Greek manuscripts. Were you aware that the two main "older, better manuscripts", the Siniaticus and the Vaticanus, only agree with each other about 75 percent of the time? I still pray that I am counted worthy (with His righteousness) to escape all these things. Were it based on my strength, well, I'm not so sure about that. But I don't think it is. Love in Christ, Mark |
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52 | Thanxs again | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165632 | ||
Hi Tashina, I am happy if anything I can offer is useful to you. I look forward to our continued discussion of God's Word! :-) Love in Christ, Mark |
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53 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165633 | ||
Hi Kalos, I feel that our time in history right now would be comparable to the 9 1/2 month point. That is why I am so excited to be alive today, to see the Bible coming to life in nearly every newscast and every newpaper. To answer your question about expectancy, the pregnant woman is expecting, and not at "any moment", as she is waiting for certain things to happen first, such as the calender ticking past a few more months. Jesus' parables taught to be waiting, because you do not know when He is coming, maybe early, maybe late. We don't know what the time lapse will be as the pregnant woman does, at least to a degree. So expectant, yes, but expectant for the baby to come along later. I hadn't noticed, but now that you mention it, I will not take it personally if you do not continue in this discussion. :-) With that in mind, I appreciate all the more the responses you have given me. I may add a few more short notes as I read what you have written, as I have noticed you have posted some responses. I will not think anything untoward should you not be inclined to reply. This is of course a topic of which there are differing views, and I feel that we have made a good showing towards presenting a couple of them, with some of the difficulties involved depending on what one may think. And again, God bless you my brother! Love in Christ, Mark |
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54 | RAPTURE | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 165634 | ||
Hi John, This would then seem to mean that Jesus returns prior to the day prophesied in Daniel of when He takes away the authority of the beast, but that requires that we insert a time gap of well over 5 months between Revelation 19:16 and 19:20, which would accomodate the sounding of the trumpets and the pouring out of the bowls. Just speaking for myself, I do not see how the text allows for that. This would also give serious sequential difficulties in placing the trumpets so late in the tribulation. It also brings up the question of why Daniel would have prophesied that "the Ancient of Days" would come after the 3.5 years were over, if in fact He came sooner. (Daniel 7) Just a couple of final thoughts. Love in Christ, Mark |
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55 | "word" or "Word" | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 166074 | ||
Hi New Creature, This difference is the result of editorial decisions of the translators. There is one of three potential things happening here. Mr. Green apparently believes that this reference refers to Christ, and has capitalized it out of his respect for our Lord. A Bible that does not capitalize this word either does not capitalize all words refering to Deity (the preface or forward should let you know), or does not think this word refers to Deity. Any time you see capitalization in the Bible, is always relfects an editorial decision, either by the translator, or by whoever edited the Greek manuscript. Then search the Scriptures, and see for yourself if these things are true. Love in Christ, Mark |
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56 | "word" or "Word" | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 166083 | ||
Hi New Creature, Vincent's words resonate in me. The separation between the Written Word and the Living Word, well, I can only say both are exressions of the Father, and both communicate God to me. In my own views, I tend to think that the incorruptible seed spoken of here is the Holy Spirit, imparted by the instrumentality of the Son. I am running out of time, so I will try to write more on this later. Love in Christ, Mark |
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57 | Does Satan Really Exist? | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 166187 | ||
Drbloor, Your logic is the same as those that deny the Triune nature of God. "Unless you can show me a verse that says. . ." The fact that the Bible speaks of Satan as an individual teaches his individuality: Zec 3:1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? These are not words that describe a man alive in during the time of Tyre: Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. "thou wast the annointed cherub" How much of a clearer passage do you want describing the fall of an angel? Remember, God is sovereign. That is a clear teaching of the Bible. Act 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, "Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 1Ti 6:15 which he will display at the proper time--he who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, Consider what it means to be Sovereign King of Kings. It means He has final say. On everything. James plants responsibility for sin squarely where it belongs - on the sinner. But he in no wise states a non-belief in Satan, and even says we are enticed. That is something that Satan does to tempt, he entices. The Bible most certainly teaches the creation, fall, and existance of Satan: Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. and best of all, his final judgment. Love in Christ, Mark |
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58 | Does Satan Exist Part III | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 166202 | ||
Hi Ocelot, I tend to agree with you (keeping in mind this is somewhat speculative). One the radio pastors I listen to, Raul Ries, said one day that since where more is given, more is required, and since the angels have a more complete revelation of God, they are judged more severely for rebellion. Man can repent. The fallen angels are reserved for judgment. love in Christ, Mark |
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59 | Does Satan Really Exist? | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 166208 | ||
Hi Dr. B, It seems the difference between you and I is that you do not take the plain meaning of the text as the intended meaning. But once we ignore the plain meaning, where does it end? We can then attach any meaning to any text, without any regard for what God meant. But that will not lead us towards Divine Revelation. In my opinion, your analysis of Ez 28 goes through a lot of convolutions to try to avoid a simple truth. But that's ok, because you don't need that passage to prove the existance, identity, and activity of Satan. That is where Rev 20, and others, come in. I have examined your posts regarding Ezekiel 28, and I do not agree with your analysis. If you read the entire book by Newton, "Observations on the Prophecies of Daniel and the Apocalypse of St John", you are to be commended for your tenacity! I too have it on my shelf and have read it. Newton and others have taken a preterist view or prophecy. And you do this, you have to allegorize much of Scripture that does not textually allow itself to be rightfully allegorized. While you have pointed out that there is a particular referrence (to stars) that may be figurative (and that not without the solution to the figure being given in the Bible, as we know "stars" can also refer to celestial beings*), that is a far cry from proving "huge tracts" are figurative. C.S. Lewis had an interesting thought, I think it was in "The Voyage of the Dawn Treader"(?)- One of the characters was as Star, and when the little boy protested, "He can't be - stars are huge balls of burning gasses!". He was answered "that may be what stars are Made Of, but that is not what stars Are." Interesting thought. Anyway, regarding Ez. 28:18-19 "you will cease to be forever" (NASB) - this is a slightly interpretive translation, this passage is more literally translated "you will be nothing forever". "and never shalt thou be any more." KJV "and thou shalt nevermore have any being." ASV "And shall be no more forever" NKJV "and thou art not -- to the age" Youngs The Hebrew translated "nothing" and "no more" is also translated variously as "not found", "unsearchable", and does not neccessarily mean to cease to exist. One example is Saul looking for his father's donkeys. "They were nowhere" didn't mean they ceased to exist, just that Saul couldn't find them. So there is not contradiction. I apologize if I mis-spoke, I was not intending to give the impression that I though Rev 20 taught the creation and fall of Satan, those things are taught elsewhere, of course. You say that the Revelation is a book of symbolic prophecy. I agree with you to the extent that it names what things are symbols, and that the Bible tells us what those symbols mean. Unless you can present a clear, grammatically correct, lexically authoritative, contextually harmonized, and doctrinally sound presentation of why we should take a narative or declaratory passage of Scripture to be anything other that what presents itself to be, I will stay with the plain reading of the text. To do anything otherwise is to put oneself as the judge over Scripture, and far be that from me. Love in Christ, Mark |
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60 | Does Satan Exist Part III | Bible general Archive 3 | mark d seyler | 166210 | ||
Matthew, also telling us about this same teaching, lets us know that Jesus was talking about the "angels of God in heaven", not the fallen angels. (Matt. 22:30) Jude tells us about angels that disobeyed, and will be judged. I suppose that is symbollic also? Mark |
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