Results 41 - 60 of 65
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Results from: Notes Author: bubbatate Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53752 | ||
Hi Joe…… Here’s the deal…….I don’t know what to do with certain passages…….for instance, most Christians conclude they need not live Torah because Paul said: “The Law is not of faith” “I am dead to the Law” “We are delivered from the Law” “Messiah is the end of the Law for righteousness” “If you are led of the Spirit, you are not under the Law” “By deeds of the Law there shall no flesh be justified” “The Law brings wrath” Messiah “abolished in his flesh….the commandments” “A man is not justified by observing the Law but by faith in Y’shua Mashiach.” I, however, conclude that we are to live Torah because Paul said: “Do we make void the Law through faith? God forbid.” “With the mind I myself serve the Law of God.” “I delight in the Law of God.” “The righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us.” “The Law is spiritual.” “Doers of the Law shall be justified” “The Law is holy.” “The commandment is holy, just and good.” “The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law.” “I worship the God of my fathers believing all things which are written in the Law and Prophets.” “We are created unto good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them.” The same person, Paul, said everyone of these things…….please explain to me how do you reconcile both lists? What I do is look for another witness to confirm what Paul said. I can find witnesses to confirm the second list, but I cannot find a witness to confirm the first list. My comment, “Y’shua said it, I believe it.” was another sarcastic comment on my part (I have to stop doing that) as a parallel to the popular Christian saying, “God said it, I believe it.”….which strikes me as a goofy comment from someone who doesn’t believe that the seventh day is the Sabbath. Singing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb……Bub |
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42 | Has anyone noticed? | Bible general Archive 1 | bubbatate | 53731 | ||
Hey again, Steve….. C’mon get real, hang up your tap shoes. Me………."Who commanded Sunday? (chapter and verse please)." You…….Acts 20:7 (ESV) On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread... Me…….This is a command? You will eradicate the 4th commandment on the basis of Acts 20:7? Me……."As the LORD's feasts are different from yours....whose are you observing? (chapter and verse please)." You……I Cor. 11:23-25 (ESV) For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, [24] and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me." [25] In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me." Me……This is Passover, a feast of the LORD. I was pretty much looking for your justification for xmas and easter…….the holiest days on the Christian calendar so I’ve been told. Me……."What does 'Jesus' mean?" You……Je·sus -- A teacher and prophet whose life and teachings form the basis of Christianity. Christians believe Jesus to be Son of God and the Christ. [Middle English, from Late Latin Iesus, from Greek Iesous, from Hebrew yeshua, from yehoshua, Joshua.] Me……No, Steve, or should I say Stephano, or Esteban (what name did your mother give you….or doesn’t it matter?)……the question wasn’t “Who is the person, Jesus”….it was what does the word intrinsically mean? Do you know of any other historical figure who has had his name changed from culture to culture? (other than santa claus). Notice from your own references, the proper English translation is “Joshua”……..where did the word “Jesus” come from? Me…….."Who are your gentile role models?" You…….#1 Lord Jesus Christ who fulfilled the Law on our behalf. Me……..Let me rephrase the question……which of your role models are gentiles? All the ones you mention are Jewish. You…..Romans 8:3-4 Me……see Eze 36:26-27 You…….#2 Paul, who jumped on Peter for causing Gentiles to live like Jews. Me……..You don’t like Peter? Are his epistles then not credible? Wasn’t Peter led of the Spirit just like Paul? This causes a problem…..Isn’t this the same Paul who said, “You, then, why do you judge your brother?” (Ro 14:10). You……Galatians 2:14 Me…….I really can’t respond to this, not really knowing the details of the situation nor being privy to Peter’s answer. I’ll be totally honest….there’s not much in Galations that I do understand. You……#3 The church which is Christ's body. 1 Cor. 12:12-13 (ESV) For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. [13] For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. Me……See Eze 36:26-27 -------------------------------- You……..Acts 21:20 is speaking of Jews in Jerusalem who still retained ties to the Law. Gentiles were exempt. Me………The subject at hand was not Jewish believers, but newly converted gentiles. If they were exempt, what was the point of mentioning Moses, synagogues and Sabbath? You……Acts 21:25 (ESV) But as for the Gentiles who have believed, we have sent a letter with our judgment that they should abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality." Me…….Are you saying that these are the all inclusive guidelines for all gentiles for all time? You…….Acts 17 is not Gentiles wanting to hang out with Jews, but Jews wanting to hang out with Gentiles. Paul was speaking to Greeks on the Areopagus. Me……..AC 17:1 “When they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a JEWISH SYNAGOGUE. [2] AS HIS CUSTOM WAS, PAUL WENT INTO THE SYNAGOGUE, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, [3] explaining and proving that the Christ had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ, " he said. [4] Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of GOD-FEARING GREEKS and not a few prominent women.” In Areopagus he was hanging out with pagan gentiles, not converted gentiles…..not because they were cool guys, but trying to bring them to their senses. Singing the Song of Moses and the Song of the Lamb………..Bub |
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43 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53703 | ||
Dear Steve, I think what I Sa. is saying is pretty much what I said……if you obey you don’t have to worry about the sacrifice …….God prefers the obedience over screwing up and having to offer a sin sacrifice. What is “the heart of faith”? What is living by ones faith? Israel was admonished for being "unfaithful" or "faithless" in not having “faithfully” followed the LORD’s commandments. “Unfaithfulness” is disobedience…….ergo “faith” is obedience. Hab 2:4 could be read….”the righteous shall live by his obedience.” Dt 32:20 "I will hide my face from them," he said, "and see what their end will be; for they are a perverse generation, children who are unfaithful.” Who are unfaithful children? Children who are without faith. Notice this verse is from “The Song of Moses” referred to in Rev 15:3. Check ya later……..Bub |
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44 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53702 | ||
Dear IISa...... Hank's response to my now regretted and misunderstood post was similar to yours....please see my reply to him (7/8/02 6:44 am). What is your take on Heb 10:26-31? Thanks for your concern, I apologize......Bub |
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45 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53701 | ||
Dear Hank…… I’m having an ongoing dialogue with Steve. My flippant use of the word “bunk” can’t be understood without knowing to what I am responding…..I didn’t think of the impact my statement would have when read as an isolated comment……..sorry. Here’s the deal, my original comment was, “There is no sacrifice for intentional, willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua. See I Jn 3:9; 5:18 and especially look at Heb 10:26-31 below and the comments following.” HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Steve’s reply was, “And that was my point about misunderstanding or misapplying God's will to which you said "There is no grace nor sacrifice for willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua." With all due respect, that is pure bunk. Read 1 John 1:8-2:2. But I see why you're not worried about no longer being able to sacrifice since you have achieved perfection in this life. ;-) .” My remark, which you are addressing, was pure sarcasm……he said that what I said about there being no sacrifice, including Y’shua’s blood, for willful sin was “pure bunk”….if that statement is “pure bunk” then you have to conclude that Heb 10:26 is also “pure bunk”…that was my point. I hope you can follow that. Since I have your ear and respect your opinion…….am I correct in concluding that the sins for which there was no sacrifice in the OT, the penalty was death (I listed most of these in a post yesterday to Steve), is what Heb 10:26 is referring to? (Nu 15:30: " But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people. [31] Because he has despised the LORD's word and broken his commands, that person must surely be cut off; his guilt remains on him.") Thanks Hank……..Bub |
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46 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53651 | ||
Salutations Steve, Sorry, I didn't mean to duck your questions.....as I said, I was responding to Johnny who in essense said he wanted nothing to do with the old testament, if Jesus didn't specifically teach it he’s not buying it". My example of bestiality was just an example of how you can't expect every nuance of life to be addressed with specificity in the NT......your list of questions illustrates the same point. It’s a no brainer which is why I didn’t even bother to respond. I had to use an Old Testament law to disprove his point because he was bad mouthing the OT. But then you are looking for me to cite a specific OT law against your list.....I never said that the OT commands were all inclusive…..but a lot of people, like Johnny, think that the NT is. You can’t imagine how sorry I am that I opened my big mouth about bestiality, yikes! However, I can’t let your other comments slide….You said: “And that was my point about misunderstanding or misapplying God's will to which you said "There is no grace nor sacrifice for willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua." With all due respect, that is pure bunk. Read 1 John 1:8-2:2.” With all due respect, get your scissors, I personally prefer a single edged razor blade, and remove Heb 10:26 and 29 from your Bible…..it’s pure bunk. I Jn 1:8 and 2:2 are great but you have to reconcile them with IJn 3:6, 9 and IJn 5:16-18…..John is saying there is a sin, AMONG THE BROTHERS…..that would indicate a sin committed by a professed believer…. that leads to death (one of those listed below)…..it apparently is a sin which the blood of Y’shua doesn’t cover. There are a host of sins in the OT for which there was no sacrifice…..the offender was the dead meat….no grabbing an animal and heading for the Tabernacle….they include: Breaking commandments 1 and 2--Lev 20:2 Breaking the 3rd commandment--Lev 24:14-16 Breaking the 4th commandment—Ex 35:2; Nu 15:33-35 Breaking the 5th commandment—Dt 21:18:21; Ex 21:15, 17; Lev 20:9 Breaking the 6th commandment--Ge 9:5-6; Nu 35:16-21, 30-33; Dt 17:6 Breaking the 7th commandment—Lev 20:10; Dt 22:22 Consulting a medium or spiritist—Lev 20:27 Prophesying falsely or propagating false doctrines—Dt 13:6-10 False worship—Dt 17:2—8 Promiscuity—Dt 22:20-21; Lev 21:9 Incest—Lev 20:11-12, 14 Practicing homosexuality—Lev 20:13 Bestiality—Ex 22:19 Rape of a betrothed virgin--Dt 22:25 Kidnapping--Ex 21:16; Dt 24: Witchcraft--Ex 22:18 Offering human sacrifice--Lev 20:2-5 Sacrificing to false gods--Ex 22:20 Refusing to abide by the decision of the court--Dt 17:12 Anyway……if there was no blood atonement for the above under the Old Covenant sacrificial system, there can be no atonement with Y’shua’s blood once you have professed commitment to the New Covenant……which can’t be stated more clearly than in Heb 10:26,29. If you would like me to address Galations please give me specific passages to look at. Thanks Steve…………Bub |
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47 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53638 | ||
Dear Joe, I’m afraid I cannot agree with your segmenting of the Law into moral and ceremonial facets, especially in relationship to Ps 119……. the word “all” shows up 7 times in Ps 119……as in, for instance, Ps 119:160 “ALL your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal.” (see also Ps 119:6, 13, 86, 128, 151, 172). EVERY “thus saith the LORD”, according to Ps 119:160, is not only true but true for all eternity. You said, “It is God's moral commandments for our behavior which David embraces in Psalm 119 (and in Psalm 19 as well).” In what verse is this “moral” only aspect stated? As for “What Christians (and the Jewish believers) saw as a heavy yoke is the ceremonial aspects of the Law and the sacrificial requirements that came with violating God's moral commandments.” That statement assumes that the first generation Christians were going around breaking moral commandments and it was such a hassle to do the sacrifice thing…….there’s an easy way to avoid the hassle……don’t sin. I’m sure going to prison is a “burden” for someone who breaks our civil laws…….but I don’t, on a personal level, see going to prison as burden……I choose not to break the law….ergo the burdensome penalty will never affect me. I also notice that you mention Christians AND Jewish believers……..were there two separate factions? Under what category is the commandment, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind."? (Mt 22:37; quoting Dt 6:5). Moral or ceremonial? Or is there yet a third category? Also notice that Deuteronomy (Dt 11:1,13,22 etc.)goes on to define loving the LORD as keeping ALL His commandments…….would Y’shua have meant anything less when He quoted Dt 6:5? Did John, in IJn 5:2-3 mean just some of the commandments? Unless otherwise specifically substantiated.....the only safe way to go is to go with ALL. Ex 20:6 speaks of “showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.” This statement is included in the first of the ten commandments…….but in that He uses the plural, "commandmentS", He cannot only be referring to the first commandment, but to the nine following as well…..including the 4th commandment, which I have noted has come up recently on the forum for discussion. Also…….are the “thousand generations” who are to love Him and keep His commandments” just Old Testament generations? I think not, do the math. Thanks Joe…….Bub |
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48 | Has anyone noticed? | Bible general Archive 1 | bubbatate | 53628 | ||
Dear Steve and II SA, The reason I just happened to pop into the forum recently is that I just got on line for the first time about three weeks ago.....being an ardent student of scripture....the first thing I did was search for a study group.....I found the study forum to be the best.....and since it is billed as "study BIBLE forum" and not "study Christian doctrine forum" I was hoping to be allowed to be included in the dialogue. If I ever say anything unscriptural please tell me to get lost.....which you pretty much already have. In response to Steve's comments: Being one who meets on Saturday…….I am simply, and happily, obeying the commandment from my Father (Ex 20:8)to do so. Who commanded Sunday? (chapter and verse please). Being one who observes “different feasts”……I am observing the feasts of the LORD (Lev 23)……as the LORD's feasts are different from yours....whose are you observing? (chapter and verse please). I use Hebrew names because they intrinsically mean something……”Yahoshua” means “Yah saved”….what does “Jesus” mean? I think there’s something special about getting back to our Hebrew roots because my role models are all Hebrews. Who are your gentile role models? #1 My ultimate role model, Y’shua the Messiah is still a Hebrew in the Revelation….i.e. post resurrection (the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, The Root of David….Rev 5:5) #2 My role models, the chosen apostles, were all Hebrews who would not have experienced the out pouring of the Holy Spirit had they not been observing Shavout,your “Pentecost”. (Acts 2:1). #3 My role model for what the congregation of believers (church) should be like are the first generation believers who were all zealous for the Torah Hebrews (Acts 21:20) or gentiles who chose to follow the LORD, and hang out with, a bunch of Hebrews (Acts 17:26). I am a gentile by birth and thank the LORD daily for His invitation for us gentile types to bind ourselves to the LORD and become one with His people Israel. (Isa 56). As for your comment, “BTW, there have been a few on this forum that did indeed try to convince us that we were required to use the Hebrew for God or Jesus.” I can’t convince anyone of anything…..that’s the Holy Spirit’s job….I’m not competing. As for “They didn't last very long on the forum.”……..I’m in for the long haul…….at least until it’s time to shake the dust off my flip flops. Shalom alechem........Bub |
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49 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53627 | ||
Dear Joe…… I can’t find the posting to which you responding, I apologize…..can you give me the date and time etc. so I can find it? Re your comment: “You failed to address my arguments regarding Acts 15, Galatians, Ephesians 2, Colossians 2, and Hebrews, all which apparently point out that the ceremonial and sacrificial aspects of the Torah have been consummated in Yeshua.” I can still can address the statement……you use the word “apparently”……can you give me a “definitely”? The sacrificial aspects being over, I can buy……there’s no physical temple, ergo there can be no physical sacrifices……yet Paul was still making sacrifices after the resurrection while the temple was still standing. What do you mean by “ceremonial” aspects? The Levitical services? Again, with no temple the Levites are out of a job. Re your comment: “What do you do with Galatians if the ENTIRE Torah is binding on all of God's covenant people today?” That’s easy……..I go to Mt 5:18-19, Y’shua said it….that settles it. Thanks Joe…….Bub |
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50 | Has anyone noticed? | Bible general Archive 1 | bubbatate | 53625 | ||
Hi Joe Re Acts 15:21……..please clarify……are you saying the Jewish believers were still meeting in the synagogues to hear Moses preached? Thanks…….Bub |
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51 | For all on the forum..READ this | Phil 4:13 | bubbatate | 53624 | ||
Awesome, Jeshua.....thank you!!!!!! Bub |
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52 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53585 | ||
Hey again, Steve....trying to get caught up on correspondence...... Re your comment: "No, I'm not denying that passage (I Jn 2:6). But how did Jesus walk that we should imitate? Total obedience to the Father." Then you cite Php. 2:5-8 about Y'shua's obedience in going to the cross. What are you saying? That's a wonderful scripture that you quoted, but what does that have to do with OUR "total obedience to the Father"? Y'shua walked as a Torah obedient Jew....isn't that the pattern for how we should walk? Thanks Steve.........Bub |
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53 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53581 | ||
Greetings back at ya, Steve, I really didn’t want to make an issue out of bestiality……I just used it as an illustration in addressing Johnny’s remark. However, I would like to respond to some of the points that you made. You said: “God's law is written on our minds and in our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33), not in the Torah.” Your statement doesn’t compute since “Torah” is the Hebrew word used in Jer 31:33 so your statement would actually read……”God’s Torah is written on our minds and in our hearts, not in the Torah.” It doesn't make sense. You said: “We have the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us to discern it (John 14:26).” We need discernment on a lot of the Torah in many cases…..i.e. how do we accurately apply it to our 21st century culture……e.g. “Do not kindle a fire on the Sabbath”. Some discern this as do not use your stove, microwave or car (internal combustion engine),etc. My personal take is that building a fire was “work” lo those 4000 years back and since the focus of the Sabbath is no work, it is not the fire per se which was a no no but the work involved in kindling same. As for the Holy Spirit’s role concerning the Torah……We have the gift of the Holy Spirit to enable us to do Torah (Eze 36:26-27). You said: “Jesus told his followers to follow his commands (John 14:21), not the commands the Father gave Moses.” Are you saying that the Father and the Son are on different wave lengths? The Father gave the commandments to “His people” through Moses. Are you one of “His people”? What are you going to do with Rev 12:17, 14:12 and I Jn 2:3-6; 3:21-24; 5:2-3; II Jn 1:4-6, all of which, with specificity tell us to obey the commandments of the Father. What did Y’shua mean when He said, “Do the will of My Father”? (Mt 1:21; 12:50). If Y’shua and the Father are one, the commandments they promote are identical or else they are a house divided. You said: “And we have the grace of God and the shed blood of Christ to cover us when we make a mistake in knowing or following them (see, for example, the New Testament).” I remember the “everybody makes mistakes” crowd in defending Bill Clinton’s adultery……locking your keys in the car is a mistake…adultery is intentional sin. There is no grace nor sacrifice for willful sin, including the blood of Y’shua. See I Jn 3:9; 5:18 and especially look at Heb 10:26-31 below and the comments following. HEB 10:26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Notice…..The writer of Hebrews quotes Torah to make his point…..if Torah was just for “Old Testament” Hebrew types….why is he quoting it to make a New Testament point? Also, what he quoted was Dt 32:35 and 36 which is included in the “Song of Moses” of Rev 15:3. The “Song of Moses” is the Torah….see Dt 31:22 and 24. You said: “You can't expect Christians to welcome the spectre of works-righteousness or the heavy yoke of the Law.” That is not my expectation by a long shot, I know that Christians love their doctrines…..but keep in mind….I am not spewing my opinions…..I am just asking you to consider scripture which has been long overlooked by most Christians. Y’shua taught “do” and “teach” the commandments in the Torah (Mt 5:19)……not for brownie points but because it’s the law of the land in the Kingdom. As to “the heavy yoke of the Law”, it’s ironic that Ps 119 extols the magnificence of, exuberant joy in, and love of the Torah, yet most Christian’s see Torah as “a burden/a heavy yoke”. Christians will enthusiastically sing from Ps 119:105 “Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.” (The Amy Grant version, of course……sorry, couldn’t resist). In the context of Ps 119…..Christians are thereby singing, “Your Torah is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.” In song they profess Torah and in doctrine adamantly deny it. Thanks Steve…….Bub |
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54 | Has anyone noticed? | Bible general Archive 1 | bubbatate | 53531 | ||
Hank........Acts 15 may have settled the quandary about "Jewish roots" if verse 21 ("For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.") had been deleted.....but there it is. What meaning does this verse have for you in the context of the rest of the chapter? You are an excellent writer....I enjoy all your comments.....thanks.....Bub |
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55 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53468 | ||
continued from above...... Ultimately, I don’t believe that anyone from “the nations”, or any biological Jew, for that matter, is going to be on the scene except for those who enthusiastically choose Torah as in Isa 2:3. So, to respond to your statement, “Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel.” It can’t be demonstrated for it was never so, Torah never had any implications for anyone outside of the LORD’s covenants……neither Old nor New..…except that hopefully others of the nations (that’s us) would choose to “bind themselves to the LORD” by choosing to come under His covenant. (again, see Isa 56:6). If I may insert a side bar here for Johnny……he referred to Torah as “your Torah” when addressing Simchat……in one respect it is Simchat’s Torah in that he has chosen Torah, it is in his mind and heart…….but I don’t think that was what Johnny meant. Torah is “thus saith the LORD”…….it is His Torah and the word of the LORD stands forever. What did Y’shua have to say to satan? “It is written: Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God." (Mt 4:4). Where do we find “every word that comes from the mouth of God” that man is to “live on”? Isn’t He saying, to paraphrase, “Man lives on Torah alone”? Is it a coincidence that Messiah Y’shua affirms the Torah in satan’s face? “Every word that comes from the mouth of God” is Torah, which is translated as “nomos/law” in the NT. The one who comes against Y’shua, the anti-messiah, satan’s henchman, is referred to as “anomos” (without “nomos”/lawless) in II Th 2:8. There you have it……The Messiah Y’shua is pro-Torah, the anti-messiah is anti-Torah……..Y’shua is the master of Truth, the anti-messiah is the master of deceit through lies. If Y’shua would come back today and preach, “Man is to live by every word that comes from the mouth of God…..and that’s the Torah” he would be dismissed as the “anti-christ” by most Christians, because that statement does not line up with their theology. If one sees Jesus as having abolished the “nomos”…….that makes Jesus “anomos”. An ominous conclusion. The defense rests…… Thanks Joe…….Bub |
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56 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53467 | ||
Dear Joe……in response to a healthy debate between you and Simchat….I would like to add my two shekles. Simchat said: "Too many people make the Torah and the covenant at Sinai synonymous, they are not, the Torah is eternal and an entity to itself." You said: “Demonstrate from the Bible that the Torah in its entirety had any implications for people outside the covenant people of Israel. The Law of Moses was given at the same time as the covenant was ratified.” Dt 4:5-8 (below) indicates that one of the functions of Torah was to witness to the nations the superiority of the LORD and His ways: Dt 4:5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the LORD my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it. 6 Observe them carefully, for this will show your wisdom and understanding to the nations, who will hear about all these decrees and say, "Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people." 7 What other nation is so great as to have their gods near them the way the LORD our God is near us whenever we pray to him? 8 And what other nation is so great as to have such righteous decrees and laws as this body of laws I am setting before you today? Torah was supposed to have an affect upon people outside the covenant, but never imposed upon them. Just like people all over the world hear about the United States and want to come here and live under our system, our Constitution, I believe Israel was supposed to so move other people……to entice them to become an Israelite, or pattern their nation after Israel’s example and live under Torah, Israel’s constitution. This is the pattern prescribed for THE LAST DAYS in Isa 2:2-3……notice, the Torah is not a mandate externally imposed on the nations, the nations are enthusiastically seeking the Torah: Isa 2:2 “In the LAST DAYS days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and ALL NATIONS will stream to it. 3 Many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths." The law (Torah) will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (notice “Torah” and “the word of the LORD” are synonymous). Does the New Covenant with Israel have any implications for the people outside the New Covenant people of Israel? No……..except as mentioned above for the Old Covenant……outsiders are free to join up, just as they are in Isa 56:6. The Torah must carry over to the New Covenant and not go away with the Old because it is the mainstay of the N.C. (Jer 31:33)……Torah is in your minds and your hearts. In fact, I can’t understand how anyone can bad mouth the Torah and say they are “New Covenant people”……. The New Covenant IS only for Israel and Judah. (Jer 31:31)…and Torah is in your mind and heart (Jer 31:33)….if one fails to meet either of these criteria….it is impossible to be His New Covenant people. continued next........ |
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57 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53393 | ||
Dear Simchat…….I have been looking forward daily to your postings….I find them both fascinating and scholarly. I have been studying our “Jewish Roots” for about five years so what you are saying is not totally foreign to me. It was a Jewish/Christian speaking at my church who motivated me to look into the Jewishness of Y’shua, the apostles, and in fact, the entire first generation of believers…..they were all Jewish, or gentiles who converted from paganism to Judaism. I have tried to analyze everything in that light, as who is more reliable as our role models than those who were originally on the scene? A lot of Bible teachers send us back to the “early church fathers” to see what things were like, but even they in most cases were far removed in years from the original band of our “early Jewish fathers”. I thought your explanation on “Torah” (copied below) was absolutely wonderful…..I looked up “Torah” in Strong’s a long time ago…..and wondered why it was translated as “law” instead of “teaching”….this has led to many problems. I have also long thought that “Torah” was what Y’shua was speaking of when He spoke of “the will of My Father”…..what else could it be? Your comments on Torah: “Many confuse the term Torah with Law, the Hebrew word does not mean law but teachings. The translation into Law is a result of the use of the Greek word nomos to translate Torah. The term law brings a negative view of Torah rather than a positive view as it should be. Law is the rules of a government binding on the people where violation is punished. Torah is the teachings of a parent to his children where violation is disciplined. Within Law there is no room for growth. Torah allows for growth. A child grows and learns how to take care of his responsibilities, just as we are to in the Torah.” I have come to look at Torah in a manner similar to a mother putting a check off list on the refrigerator for her child……..Did you remember to: Make your bed Brush your teeth Wash behind your ears There comes a time when the list is no longer necessary……the child does it automatically for the rest of his life without even thinking……..however, before that point the child may need a little “motivating”………(can “time out” be equated to “the exile”? Insert smiley face here.) This is how I view “the Torah in one’s heart”……..it’s your way of life…….not a list that you have to agonize over. A pastor once told me, “We don’t have to do Torah because it’s in our hearts.” This made about as much sense to me as a husband saying to his wife, “I’m leaving you for my secretary but you will always be in my heart.” (ooooooooohhhhhh……could this be some insight into, “you have left your first love”?). And there are the other statements I’ve heard many times (including from the pulpit)…..”We don’t have to do the Torah because Jesus did it for us.”……or “Jesus performed the Torah perfectly so we don’t have to do it.” Do these make sense? I have learned to carefully discern things that are said, including preachers……there was a time when I would have turned around and quoted the same nonsense to someone else……not any more……that’s how bad theology gets passed around and ends up etched in stone. Thanks again for sharing the fruits of your studies………Bub P.S. to those on the Forum who would like a heads up on Jewish roots……check out “God’s Grand Strategy: Going Back to our Original Jewish Roots” at : www.revivalnet.org/Beit_Shalom/strategy.htm. |
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58 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53383 | ||
Dear Steve: Re your comment, "We are to walk in the Torah as Yeshua did." Not so. We are released from the law. Are you denying I Jn 2:6....."walk as Y'shua did"? 1Jn 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Y'shua did. Thanks.....Bub |
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59 | self control / spirit control | 1 Cor 9:25 | bubbatate | 53381 | ||
Johnny......In response to your statement, "Me I am a Christian, as I said everything that moses taught that Jesus dont teach anymore I will not obey. But all the teaching that moses taught, and Christ continue taught I will obey that." Moses taught that bestiality is a no-no......Y'shua did not......does that mean it's ok? It makes your above comment seem very foolish. Sorry......Bub |
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60 | post resurrection accounts | NT general Archive 1 | bubbatate | 53380 | ||
Dear Tim, thanks for your response, however I’m still baffled. I am not concerned with omissions or varying levels of detail among the gospels….I totally understand that. You stated, “A history is not required to mention every possible detail. It is only required to record the details factually.” This is my sticking point…..the factual details don’t fit. Mt 28:10 Then Y’shua said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."……. 16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. (A) Mt’s factual detail: The eleven went to Galilee (can we assume that this was immediately, on the first day?). Mk 15:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, "He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you." 8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid. (The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20). (B) Mark’s factual detail: The women did not give the disciples the message to go to Galilee. LK 24: 1 On the first day of the week…….13 Now that same day…….33 They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven……36 While they were still talking about this, Y’shua himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." (C) Luke’s factual detail: On the first day Y’shua appeared first to the eleven in Jerusalem. JN 20:10 Then the disciples went back to their homes……..19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Y’shua came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord….. 24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came…….26 A week later his disciples were in the house again. (D) John’s factual detail: On the first day Y’shua appears to ten in a houses. Okay, can A and B be reconciled? Yes, with a little creativity one could say that later they delivered the message and the disciples went to Galilee. Can A and C be reconciled? No. How can they be both in Galilee and in Jerusalem on the same day? Can A and D be reconciled? No. Again they are in Jerusalem, not Galilee, with the further contradiction that there were only ten present instead of the eleven. How can you get all these to fit? You said, “The fact that Luke and John do not mention going to Galilee is not a problem as long as they do not explicitly deny that it took place. Silence is not a contradiction.” The problem is not that they are silent on “Galilee”, but that they place the initial meeting of Y’shua and the disciples in Jerusalem. The logistics are impossible to reconcile. My point is, how can one say that each of the writers were writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Wouldn’t the Holy Spirit inspire with consistency? Just the fact that most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20, which has a separate post resurrection account, raises questions……did the Holy Spirit add that later? Thanks Tim……..Bub |
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