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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
41 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24676 | ||
Hi Lisa, I'd heard Charlemagne held the Spear of Longinus and it was supposed to have given him clairvoyant faculties and uncanny powers. Charlemagne lived and slept within reach of the Spear. The occult powers of the Spear were known world wide. Hitler also possessed the Spear after stealing it from the Treasure House in Vienna (Oct. 13, 1938). He'd been entranced by that Spear for many years because of the "power" he understood it to give its owner. He first hid it in the Hall of St. Katherine's Catholic Church in Nuremburg. Did you know that the then Pope never spoke out against any of the Nazi atrocities that were committed in Germany and Austria, etc. I've read articles that insist that the RCC wanted possession of that Spear, and thought they might be able to get it from Hitler since he was a devout Catholic. It seems the demonics behind that Spear is quite powerful when it's placed in the appropriate hands. |
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42 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24727 | ||
Hi Lisa, I too enjoy studying church history, and I agree with your evaluation of many/most popes. As to purgatory, Islam also teaches of a purgatory. From what I've read Mohammad got that through Catholic teachings of his day. From what I understand, Mohammad's mother was a devout Catholic. As to the sacrament of Reconciliation. The Catholic Church usually uses... Matthew 16:19 "And I will give you keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." and also... Matthew 18:18 "Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." ... to say that priests are to either "bind" or "loose" because the RCC claims that their priesthood is descended from the apostle Peter. There is a problem with that. Peter was not a priest. In fact he refers to himself as a "fellow elder" (1Peter 5:1) and states in the following verses in chapter 5, that an elder (someone who has become wise in the faith through years of experience) is to "shepherd" the flock only as overseers and examples, and not as "lords over" the flock. But more to the point, reconciliation means "to make friendly again; to make consistent or compatible". If I confess my sins to you after having offended God or others... how will that reconcile me to the Father or the person I offended? It won't. Matthew 18:15-20 "Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear you, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector. Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again! I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in My Name, I am there in the midst of them." Matthew 18:21-22 "Then Peter came to Him and said, 'Lord, how many times shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?'" Jesus said to him, 'I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven." (Rreference Luke 17:1-4). The direction for "binding" and "loosing" (forgiving and not forgiving) is not only for the elders, but it is a command from Jesus on how all of us are to deal with someone who offends us... and in reverse if we are the offender. So according to God's Word, we are to confess (actually "repent of") our sins to God, and to the person we have offended. Catholics may not perceive baptism, and communion, (or reconciliation), as rungs on the ladder to heaven, but the church teaches that they are necessary to salvation. In fact I remember "my" priest from years back saying that anyone who was NOT baptized would NOT go to heaven, and that's why it was so important to get babies baptized right away. And information from my family and friends... it's still being taught in the RCC. The Bible says in 1Peter 3:21 "there is an antitype which now saves us, namely baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." (caps are mine) Most babies do not have a good conscience toward God -- just for the record. It seems that the only people the apostles and other elders baptized were those who had heard the Word and believed. The priest also taught that anyone who DID receive communion on a weekly basis (after infant baptism) would go to heaven no matter what else they did or did not do! Nothing matterd except the "act of taking communion". He and I went round and round on that... I used the Bible as my reference and he used church doctrine as his authority. It seems to me that the Bible teaches we are to have communion using the broken bread (as a sign of Christ's broken body), and wine (as a sign of His shed blood -- the blood of the new covenant) in remembrance of Christ's ultimate sacrifice for our sin. See 1Cor. 11:23-26. And we are also warned not to partake of that communion in an unworthy manner (1Cor. 11:27-34). If you weren't taught all these strange things, that's really a wonderful blessing for you! |
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43 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24730 | ||
Hitler did remain a Catholic though even though he was "into" the occult. Spiritism is easy to reconcile for some. Doesn't it seem strange in retrospect that he was never excommunicated from the church? I'd never thought of that aspect before. And there were Catholics and Protestants in the concentration camps too. But I've found in my study that the Church (along with MANY nations) didn't stand against Hitler's actions until it personally effected them. And since it didn't personally effect Rome... apparently there was no reason for them to take a stand, huh? And as I said, I have read that Rome wanted to gain possession of the Spear of Longinus too. Rome enjoys power. That's a historical fact Lisa, as I'm sure you've found in your study of church history. God bless. |
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44 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24734 | ||
I would agree Brian, except that Allah is not the same God as Jesus' Father. So who are they actually seeking? I've heard so many people say that Muslims claim their God is the God of Abraham. Yet Abraham foresaw God's plan of salvation (Heb. 11:13-16). If Allah was the God of Abraham, then why isn't He still saving them the same way that He saved Abraham, and still teaching the same thing taught to/through Abraham and his chosen line? Doesn't a person have to seek YHWH rather than "any" god? There are many false ones available it seems. |
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45 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24765 | ||
Throughout the Middle Ages it was generally believed that the Apostles, on the day of Pentecost, while still under the direct inspiration of the Holy Ghost, composed our present Creed between them, each of the Apostles contributing one of the twelve articles. This legend dates back to the sixth century (see Pseudo-Augustine in Migne, P.L., XXXIX, 2189, and Pirminius, ibid., LXXXIX, 1034), and it is foreshadowed still earlier in a sermon attributed to St. Ambrose (Migne, P.L., XVII, 671; Kattenbusch, I, 81), which takes notice that the Creed was "pieced together by twelve separate workmen". [Excerpt from the Catholic Enclyclopedia] And the belief concerning the Apostles Creed is based on tradition rather than fact. If the apostles did write that creed on the day of Pentecost, isn't it surprising that it is not mentioned in Acts 2, nor anywhere else in scripture? |
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46 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24767 | ||
Most of the information I've found were either in "Christian" books or ordinary history books. Also certain historical articles/accounts on the net in the last few years. I wish I could give you titles or even links, but I honestly can't because I don't actually remember any one in particular. When I read them, I didn't know I'd ever be asked. :) First off, when I say RCC -- I mean Roman Catholic Church. And I'm not sure that I understand what you mean by the "7 branches". Do you mean 7 branches of the "Catholic Church"?? Or are you talking about the early churches that were founded by the apostles, including Paul... which truly has very little to do with any of the denominations today in my opinion. So if you are not Roman Catholic, what type of label for your Catholicism do you use? I'm asking. :):) And could you explain the difference between your Catholic doctrine and the Roman Catholic doctrine? And is your Catholic church under the umbrella of Rome -- the Pope more specifically? And I think there is a bit of harm in teaching any lie, no matter how small or inconsequential a person may see it. And purgatory is one of those things. That teaching has given many the idea that if they can't cut it here, they will have another chance to be saved after suffering in purgatory for an indeterminate amount of time. That is a false teaching according to the Bible. God bless. |
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47 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24772 | ||
It may make a cute joke, but it would be a real shame if someone believed it. Peter nor Mary are standing by a door in heaven ready to let people in. They don't have the authority to do anything to save anyone alive today, and in many aspects that really is the key point in salvation, isn't it? Salvation means freedom from the bondage of sin, but it also means eternal life with God. So, who saves is a key point I think? John 10:8-14 Jesus speaking, "...I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture..." Joking aside... there is no other that can help you get into heaven. You said: I think Brian is saying the Lord would not create innocent peoples only to cast them into hell. I'd like to refer you to Romans 9:14-24 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.' So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy... Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?' But indeed O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" The Creator does not necessarily "think" like we would like to think He thinks sometimes. And who is it that you know of who does not know the Lord... that is "innocent" before Him? Scripture says we are all sinners... and our righteousness is in Christ. No Christ, no righteousness before God. You said: They are his creation. Are they to be condemned because no one has been able to reach them with God's word? Isn't that God's choice? And if He says salvation is only through His Son... should we try to tell Him He's doing it wrong if He doesn't save those who do not know His Son? Should we question God's method of salvation, or His judgement? God bless. |
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48 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24788 | ||
Hi Brian, 956. "The intercession of the SAINTS. 'Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped.'[LG 49; cf. 1 Tim 2:5 .] Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.[St. Dominic, dying, to his brothers.] I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.[St. Therese of Lisieux, The Final Conversations, tr. John Clarke (Washington: ICS, 1977), 102.]" [From the Catholic Catechism] This is a "teaching" of the Catholic Church. It's catechism is used for teaching both child and adult about Catholicism. Q: What are the Marian dogmas of the Catholic Church? A: There are four Marian dogmas: 1) Divine Motherhood - Council of Ephesus 431 2) Mary's Virginity a) Virginal Conception through the Spirit - Baptismal symbols since 3rd century. b) Perpetual Virginity (virginal birth and no other children) - Baptismal symbols since 4th century (first in eastern church) 3) Immaculate Conception (Mary's freedom from original sin) - Puis IX, 1854 4) Mary's Assumption (body and soul) into heaven - Pius XII, 1950 [From "Marian Library/International Marian Research Institute", Dayton, Ohio -- a Catholic organization.] The dates in the above information tells you when those "dogmas" were officially accepted by the RCC. Some are not biblical truth. They were inspired by the many "apparitions of Mary" though... and incorporated into the Church doctrine. Yet, as I said, many disagree with the New Testament... the actual written "apostolic teachings". A PRAYER by Pope John Paul II: Our Lady of the Millennium, Mother of the Redeemer with great joy we call you blessed. In order to carry out His plan of salvation, God the Father chose you before the creation of the world. You believed in His love and obeyed His word. The Son of God desired you for His Mother when he became man to save the human race. You received Him with ready obedience and undivided heart. The Holy Spirit loved you as His mystical spouse and He filled you with singular gifts. You allowed yourself to be led by His hidden and powerful action. On the eve of the third Christian Millennium. we entrust to you the Church which acknowledges you and invokes you as Mother. To you, Mother of the human family and of the nations, we confidently entrust the whole of humanity, with its hopes and fears. Do not let it lack the light of true wisdom. Guide its steps in the ways of peace. Enable all to meet Christ, the Way and the Truth and the Life. Sustain us, O Virgin Mary, on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation. O clement, O loving, O sweet Mother of God and our Mother, Mary! -- written by Pope John Paul II Daily prayers by Pope John Paul II: Through you God's holy people, his Church on earth, appeals for light and strength in its pilgrimage of faith. You have gone before us on the same journey and are now glorified in heaven. Be for us who are still on that journey of faith a true Star of the Sea, leading us to the presence of your Son where he sits at the right hand of the Father, enthroned in glory. More by same author: Take from all our hearts the selfishness that sours relationships and keeps us centered only on ourselves. Give us hearts aflame with charity and filled with love. Make us, like the apostle John who was commended to your care, loving children of our heavenly Father, conscious always of your maternal presence in our lives. You said: To these people, the Church presents Christians who have gone before us and Mary, as role models. Not as figures to be worshipped, but role models. Because of a child's relation with their own mother, sometimes it is easier for the child to relate to the mother of Jesus - which in turn, gently brings the child in Jesus' world. So either the Pope is still in need of Mary to bring him into Jesus' world, or he actually thinks Mary can change hearts, guide people, enable people to meet Christ, lead people to Christ, and he wants to entrust the Church to her... the church who acknowledges her and invokes her; and he believes she can sustain her children and OBTAIN THE GRACE OF ETERNAL SALVATION for them?? The Pope's Mary seems to be able to do everything that God can do. The real difference is that God's Word says that God is the ONLY person who can do those things. For myself, I'll believe God's Word is true before that of any man. God bless. |
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49 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24791 | ||
Just one thing I'd like to comment on Brian. You said: While the core beliefs of the Catholic church are never changing, The core belief of Catholicism has never changed one bit during the past 2000 years. When you add someone else to the equation of man plus God equals salvation... the "core belief" is very much changed. Do you think it does not matter that on the one hand the Catholic Church teaches salvation is through Christ, and then also teaches salvation can be gained through the mediation or intercession of Mary? That is not a change in the core belief to you Brian? It seems like a major change to me. Or do you think the RCC has... since the days of the apostalic writings (New Testament) taught that salvation could be gained either way? |
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50 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 24795 | ||
Hi Lisa, You said: My best interpretation to your points would be Pre-Vatican II and Post-Vatican II. Well, those things happened almost 20 years ago... long after Vatican II. So Vatican II didn't change all the wrong teachings, huh? I have heard about a couple born-again priests though, which was great news actually. But they were struggling with Catholic doctrine on a personal level. And some priests do encourage the people in their parishes to read the Holy Bible now, which they did not do years ago. My neighbor told me that his priest told him a couple years ago not to bother reading the Bible because a layman couldn't actually understand it, and that's why the priests read it and preach it... to make it more understandable for the laity. Such a shame... my neighbor believed him. So everything is not changed by Vatican II I guess. God bless. |
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51 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25139 | ||
Congratulations to the new family member, Lisa!! I agree you can't judge a denomination by one or two people. And I have not been doing that. I think I have been basing my remarks mostly on the differences between Catholic "teachings" and Biblical teachings, but you haven't responded to those particular subjects. Anyway, to suppose that because a few views have changed the whole system is, I think, wrong too. And what I was attempting to show you was that everything has not been changed by Vatican II. God bless. |
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52 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25141 | ||
Hi Lisa, I left the Catholic Church about 20 years ago. I think I may understand more than you think I do. You said: You can quote scripture to support it, I can as well. Please show me the scripture that supports your belief in purgatory. I'd be very interested in changing my mind if you can show scripture that says we can be cleansed from sin by anything other than the blood of Christ. Please show me scripture that says there are different degrees of sin, such as venial and mortal sins. What books were removed from the Bible that you think explain those concepts that are not NOW in the Bible? And you implied that you would answer the question if asked. So I asked, what Catholic label in your last post do you go by? Or what type of Catholic are you? I'm not sure how to even ask that question. If we are going to discuss "Christian" topics, then let's use scripture to "prove out" our points of view, okay? I'm sincerely interested in yours. Two more questions. Do you think Catholic doctrine is based on the Bible? And do you think the Bible is the inspired Word of God? God bless. |
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53 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25219 | ||
I think I understand Lisa. I (we) generally ask questions and then end up discussing the differences in our particular understanding of certain biblical verses. Most of the time it makes a person think about things they may not have considered. And as for me, I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God, so anything that adamantly disagrees with the Word is incorrect. You are right about that. And I don't think saying "but" means that we (or me in particular) aren't listening. It simply means that your understanding is not the only understanding... and someone has other considerations to add to the discussion. If I've offended you by asking for scripture to back up certain of your beliefs, I truly am sorry. |
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54 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25432 | ||
Can I still reply to you in the "neutral zone"? :) You said: When I try to explain what is actually taught I get "But..." But that's not what he said, but that's not what she said. Who are they? BUT ( joking here ) there are two things not taken into account in your statement. 1) "what is TAUGHT" by who? Isn't that why scripture has been provided to show that Jesus and the apostles "TAUGHT" something totally different at times? 2) And sometimes we (I) have mentioned something someone else has said, simply because it explains much better than just "giving my opinion" concerning things you have stated. Example: You say the Church teaches THIS, but the Church says it teaches THAT. If I make statements that are incorrect, I would certainly HOPE that someone would show me the difference. Are you trying to say that you prefer to believe what you believe, even if it disagrees with the teaching of Jesus and the apostles? ... and also believe that the Catholic Church Cathechism teaches things it does not teach? I hope you will clarify this for me. God bless. |
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55 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25442 | ||
Hello Martha, You mention several similarities with my own childhood into adulthood. My Catholic mother sent me to a one-week Methodist Bible camp for several summers where they taught Bible and only Bible. I'm not sure they still do though. We were from a small town -- about 90 percent Catholic, and the priest and Catholic townspeople turned on her with a vengeance for letting me go there. Actually threatened her in a variety of ways... but I won't get into that. I think what hit me the hardest was not even the difference in the teachings during those camp days, but the response of the Catholics who claimed to love all people during mass on Sunday, but could hate with such a vengeance when someone did not do as they said to do. I'm not saying all Catholics are like that, but it was that part of the EXPERIENCE that put the most CONFUSION in my mind as a child. The major change for me came when I began to read the Bible as an adult. I had taught CCD in the RCC for several years, and was a CCD teacher when I began reading God's Word. At that point I was so convicted that if the Catechism teachings differed from the Bible, I realized I could not teach it. I let my Religous Education Supervisor know why I could not teach the Catholic doctrine, and she understood and allowed me to teach Bible. Several of the children (different ages -different years) came to know Jesus as their Savior during those years. :) And wonderfully, their faith impacted the beliefs of their parents as they too began reading Bible. Almost like the domino effect in reverse! :) My all Catholic family and friends tolerated me when I was a Bible believing Catholic, but when I left the Church everything changed. When they realized that I was not "coming back" to the RCC, well... to put it mildly, I had to find all new friends. :) The response was very similar to the earlier situation 20 to 25 years earlier. It really saddened my heart, but during those days I found the Lord truly was sufficient for me. After much prayer and years later, the Lord has given me some members of my "family" back though. My mother and two sisters have come to know the Lord Jesus. It's amazing sometimes how the Lord works, but I especially praise Him for His saving works!!! God's WORD truly does change hearts! God bless you. |
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56 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25443 | ||
I say, "Thank the Lord that they did not know where the Lord allowed Martha to go"... or they might have stopped her from learning from God's Word!!! And from experience... the confusion within the Church does cause confusion for young people. People act out what they believe, and in Martha's case it seems the many priests had different "beliefs" which in turn became different actions. The thing that I found the most dangerous as an adult, with children of my own, was that they thought if a priest said something -- then it had to be true because he would never lie. Early as possible, I got a Bible into each of my children's hands so they could find out what GOD had to say, rather than taking the word of me or anyone else. |
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57 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25446 | ||
I know what you mean. I used to ask why, "if there is only ONE way to the Father"... then "why does the church teach other means of salvation". Such as works, purgatory, praying to Mary and the saints. Either there is ONE way, or there is NOT ONE way. And since the Bible teaches "one way", and those teachings (apostolic teachings) are what the Catholic Church claims to base their religion on... then the Church's whole teaching should agree with the apostolic teachings. Did that make sense? :) |
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58 | Is this the 'Complete Christian'? | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25457 | ||
You said: When I said she knew he had to die, I was speaking about her pain at the time of his persecution. At the foot of his cross. Her acceptance of God's will. No where in the bible does it say anything about her crying or carrying on. You are right. It doesn't say "Mary wept or carried on". It is very much implied though. Luke 23:27-29 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed ("kopto" to beat the breast in grief; wail, lament, mourn) and lamented ("threneo" mourn, lament) Him. But Jesus, turning to them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep ("klaio" wail aloud, sob) for Me, but weep for yourselves and your children. For indeed the days are coming..." John 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother. and His mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. Mary was one of those who "followed" Jesus, and I assume one of the "daughters of Jerusalem" that Jesus referred to just before He died.(Someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) When she and Joseph presented Jesus in the Temple, she was told by Simeon that a "sword would pierce through her own soul". I would expect that it would have almost broken Mary's heart to watch her son die on that cross. Lisa, do you think Mary was too "strong" to weep or mourn the persecution and death of her son? Or that His pain would not have effected her since she had heard His gospel of life? In John 20:9 it states that the apostles did not yet know He would rise from the dead, and no where does it say that Mary did either. These are my reasons for thinking that Mary wept and mourned her son's death. Could you explain your reasons for thinking otherwise? |
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59 | Is this the 'Complete Christian'? | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25465 | ||
Hi Norrie, The apostles didn't know Jesus would die until it happened. They didn't know Jesus would rise again either until it happened... so would Mary have known before hand? I keep thinking of the time Jesus taught at the Temple, while Joseph and Mary were heading home to Nazareth and after finding him Mary asked Jesus why He'd done that to them because they were beside themselves trying to find Him. Jesus reply was "Why is it that you sought Me? Did you not know that I must be about My Father's business?" (Luke 2:49). Luke 2:50 But they did not understand the statement which He spoke to them. I think that last verse is saying that Mary didn't understand exactly who Jesus was or she would have expected Him to be about His FATHER's business. And taking this a step further: if Mary did not realize exactly who Jesus was, or how God's salvation was to come through Jesus, then would she have known He was going to die on the cross before it happened? Or would she have been as in-the-dark about it as the apostles were until He died and rose again? Let me know what you think. |
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60 | "Once Saved Always Saved" | NT general Archive 1 | There | 25479 | ||
Here's one that appears to be church sanctioned as of 1997. http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm This on-line Second Edition English Translation of the Catechism of the Catholic Church includes the corrections promulgated by Pope John Paul II on 8 September 1997. These corrections to the English text of the Catechism of the Catholic Church were made to harmonize it with the official Latin text promulgated by Pope John Paul II on the same date. For details of the corrections, see the editio typica modifications to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. When you go to that site, click on the picture of the Catechism book. Then scroll down and click on "Article 9 - I Believe in the Holy Catholic Church", and you will find what I've copy and pasted below. PART ONE THE PROFESSION OF FAITH SECTION TWO THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH CHAPTER THREE I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT ARTICLE 9 "I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH" 748 "Christ is the light of humanity; and it is, accordingly, the heart-felt desire of this sacred Council, being gathered together in the Holy Spirit, that, by proclaiming his Gospel to every creature, it may bring to all men that light of Christ which shines out visibly from the Church."135 These words open the Second Vatican Council's Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. By choosing this starting point, the Council demonstrates that the article of faith about the Church depends entirely on the articles concerning Christ Jesus. The Church has no other light than Christ's; according to a favorite image of the Church Fathers, the Church is like the moon, all its light reflected from the sun. 749 The article concerning the Church also depends entirely on the article about the Holy Spirit, which immediately precedes it. "Indeed, having shown that the Spirit is the source and giver of all holiness, we now confess that it is he who has endowed the Church with holiness."136 The Church is, in a phrase used by the Fathers, the place "where the Spirit flourishes."137 750 To believe that the Church is "holy" and "catholic," and that she is "one" and "apostolic" (as the Nicene Creed adds), is inseparable from belief in God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. In the Apostles' Creed we profess "one Holy Church" (Credo . . . Ecclesiam), and not to believe in the Church, so as not to confuse God with his works and to attribute clearly to God's goodness all the gifts he has bestowed on his Church.138 Then check out http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#III You may want to read from line 830-848 to get a better understanding of what the Catholic Catechism teaches as far as what/who the Catholic Church is, which also states what I've copied below. "Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336 Do you find this catechism book satisfactory? And just for the record, that last sentence up there "they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it", is saying that I'm not saved because I left the Catholic Church. Did you catch that? |
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