Results 241 - 260 of 517
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Results from: Notes Author: Beja Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
241 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226294 | ||
EdB, You said: "First you believe Jesus wasn't the only way into heaven that there was another way." It was very ungracious of you to put words such as these into my mouth. You have your wish, I'll comment on this thread no further. In Christ, Beja |
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242 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226291 | ||
EdB, So nothing whatsoever in the actual passage that you can point to. In Christ, Beja |
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243 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226289 | ||
Thread, I can't help but to think about my own question, and what possible answers there might be in the passage. First I've shown clearly that the passages displays Abraham himself as being there. But if I recall at some point it was asked, how can one be IN another person's bosom? As if that would show that clearly a location must be meant by Abraham's bosom and not Lazarath being held to Abraham, the person's, side. Let's see if this holds up to scripture. Look with me at John 13:23 Here it is in the NASB Joh 13:23 There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved. Here again in young's literal Joh 13:23 And there was one of his disciples reclining (at meat) in the bosom of Jesus, whom Jesus was loving; I post YLT, because the NASB here has cleaned itup some for english. In the Greek both Luke16:23 and John 13:23 use the greek preposition en. It quite literally says that as they reclined there, John was "in" Jesus' bosom. However, quite clearly it meant laying upon his bosom, hence the NASB making it more understandable. So clearly "in his bosom" can very comfortably mean being held at Abraham's side. If this is not enough see these verses. Gen 16:5, Exo 4:6, Num 11:2, Ruth 4:16, 2 Sam 12:18, 1 Kin 1:2, 1 King 3:20, 1 King 17:19, Prov 6:27, Isa 40:11, Isa 49:22, Micah 7:5, Luke 6:38, John 1:18. I hope this shows conclusively that the word "in" is no reason to interpret Abraham's bosom as anything other than the man's bosom. However, lets see what Gill has to say. I dare say he's a man who knows Jewish thought quite well. Abraham's bosom is meant heaven, a phrase well known to the Jews, by which they commonly expressed the happiness of the future state: of Abraham's happy state they had no doubt; and when they spake of the happiness of another's, they sometimes signified it by going to Abraham. I know it might offend EdB that I continue the discussion after we called it off. Yet I feel that continuing to speak as if it is a given that luke is saying this deserves to be challenged, and that he should exegetically defend his interpretation of the passage before continuing to present it as a given. In Christ, Beja |
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244 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226288 | ||
EdB, You keep saying that in luke 16 "Jesus clearly painted a word picture of Hades." May I ask what specifically in that passage you would point to in order to prove that Jesus is speaking of two sections of Hell as oppossed to one person in Hell and another person in heaven being comforted by Abraham? In Christ, Beja |
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245 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226266 | ||
EdB, I'm tempted to reply to several things you said in your last post. You always seem to assert your view all over again in the posts where you intend to move on. However, as per your wishes I will let it drop with only one exception that I feel I must correct. You said, "it is obvious to all that neither of us are going to change the others mind." However, I insist that whether it be this day or sometime down the road, I stand more than ready to recant and accept the teaching should you be able to show me that it has sound basis in the word of God. May God bless you as well. In Christ, Beja |
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246 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226257 | ||
EdB, You state: "I guess if you are going to summarily discount the Talmud and Jewish oral tradition that agrees with the description of Hades found in Luke 16" Response: I most certainly am going to dismiss it, and I feel you ought to give answer to my exegesis of Luke 16 before you just go on acting as if there is a parallel. You said: "...any further discussion on the subject is pointless." Response: Have you no scripture whatsoever then for these things you are teaching to young Christians? In Christ, Beja |
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247 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226250 | ||
EdB, Its going to be hard to come to any real communication between us that is anything but us repeating our party lines unless we are willing to stop and evaluate points one at time and slowly. Therefore to that end, if you really want to analyze this with me, I will take the only passage of scripture you quoted and I will show you why I think it is utterly absurd to interpret it as if scripture is sugesting there is a location known as 'Abraham's Bosom.' Now, lets see Luke 16, what does it actually say? Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom." Now, it says he looked up and saw what? Abraham. He saw the person. Not a place called Abraham's bosom...he saw the person Abraham! If you have any doubts to this, read the rest of the passage and understand that he was speaking with whom? Abraham! So he saw the person, and he saw Lazarus in his bosom, in other words held to his side. The picture here is that he saw abraham holding and comforting Lazarus. So how on earth can you tell me that from this statement I must accept that this passage is teaching a place under the earth that is named Abraham's bosom, which was a temprory holding cell for righteous people until Christ come emptied them from the place called Abraham's bosom? I ask anybody with common sense to tell me this isn't a huge case of reading your pre-existing thoughts into the text. Indeed, this is your only passage! Everything else you bring is speculation by uninspired authors! If you want any address to the apostles creed, I refer you to John Calvin's address to itin the institutes of the Christian religion. So now, if you wish, debate my interpretation of Luke, or if you'd rather, put forward some other evidence for this elaborate view. But please, lets bring your evidence forward one piece at a time so that we might inspect the quality of the things you say. In Christ, Beja |
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248 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226248 | ||
EdB, I find no scripture whatsoever saying that Christ went to Hades. Second, I find no passage in SCRIPTURE that teaches a two fold division of hell where once good dead people lived. Second, I find no passage in scripture whatsoever that teaches some great jail break from one of those sections of hell after individuals are already there. I find no passage in scripture that teaches dead people were later preached the gospel so that they could be saved. In contrast, I see scripture affirm that the old testament saints saw the promises of Christ from afar and believed. So in short, I question the entire line of thought from start to finish. You ask me to accept your entire elaborate notion of all these things and then once granting all of that, you then say how do I argue against a minor point? The problem is that I see no reason anywhere to think that any of it is more than our own imagination. In Christ, Beja |
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249 | where is Christ battling Satan in HELL | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226245 | ||
Glenda, I reply to Ed's post but really this is meant for the original poster. I do so because I want to comment on Ed's point but I'm not really wanting to get into a debate on it. I simply would like the original poster to know that the teaching that Christ went to a subsection of Hades known as paradise in order to preach the gospel to those that are dead is certainly not an undisputed teaching of scripture. Incase it isn't obvious, I personally think its rooted in completely missunderstanding a few passages. If any wish to discuss the passages I am happy to, but for the moment I merely wish to make readers aware that the passages ought to be studied themselves so they can come to their own conclusions. In Christ, Beja |
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250 | Tempted to neglect God by those near us. | Deut 13:8 | Beja | 226237 | ||
Take heed of a snare in your bosom. This is one of the Devil's great subtleties, to hinder us from religion by our nearest relations, and to shoot us with our own rib. he tempted Adam by his wife, Gen. iii. 6. Who would have suspected the Devil there?...Take heed of such tempters; resolve to hold on your violence for heaven, though your carnal friends dissuade you. Tis better to go to Heaven with their hatred, then to Hell with their love. -Thomas Watson Deu 13:6-10 "If your brother, your mother's son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, 'Let us go and serve other gods' (whom neither you nor your fathers have known,of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him. But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. |
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251 | How do I abide in His love? | John 15:10 | Beja | 226190 | ||
To the thread as a whole, I highly encourage the orginal poster to not contact Philip and to leave their discourse open on the forum so that any errors may be rebuked. This is for our safety that we might not be taught false doctrine. I warn you, that what Philip is teaching is false. However, there is a kernal of truth to it, that makes it having a momentary seeming of truth. But in the same fashion there is a mixture of heresy that can cause it to be fatal. What Philip is correct about is that a Christian should never under any circumstances make peace with sin. At no point should we look at any particular sin and accept its presence in our lives because "we are all sinners." No, fight every manifistation of sin in your life all the time with the strength of God working in you and through you through His Holy Spirit. Now that being said, the dangerous error that Philip teaches is that a saved individual never sins. This is a very dangerous error. Part of the difficulty of correcting Philip however, is that he so quickly strings wrongly understood verses together that it would be near impossible in this venue to correct him on every mistaken verse he is using. So I shall choose one that he himself listed and show how he is in error concerning that verse, and then if he would like to slow down and discuss any single particular verse of his choosing in more detail, I will be happy to. He cited 2 peter 1:10. Now I affirm that a Christian is doing and growing in the things listed in 2 Peter chapter 1. However, the error Philip teaches is perfection. Is that how Peter sees what he is saying? Let us look at just two verses previous. 2 Peter 1:8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now look at what Peter says, if you are INCREASING. That is what describes a christian. But if they are increasing then they can not yet be perfect! Peter in verse eight clearly does NOT have in mind Christians being already perfect in all these attributes. Now how then does Philip pass off Peter, just two verses later, as demanding perfection when he states, "for if you do these things, ye shall never fall"? He has taken Peter out of context and used it to promote something that was nowhere near what Peter was intending to say. And such he does with a great many verses, all of which a dilligent student can show to be error. Peter meant (as he clearly said!) that as we do and grow and strive to mature in these things we will be fruitful Christians! Now, I will state how dangerous his error is. This false doctrine forces one into either one of two errors. The first, is that in order to believe one is saved they must believe that they are sinless. However what does scripture say of the man who believes they have no sin? 1 John 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Now this is without a doubt a present tense statement. A person that is unaware of their own sin is devoid of truth! And we should not be surprised since it is the job of the Holy SPirit to convict and make aware of sin. In order than to fall into this lie, we must quench all convictions of the Holy Spirit which strives to point out our falts for our ongoing sanctification. However, perhaps one would argue that this verse speaks of those who are yet to receive any knowledge of Christ, as if John were not here speaking of those who profess to know Christ. But this is easily seen to be mistaken as well, for what then is the apostle saying? That those who are outside of Christ yet aware of sin are in the truth and the truth in them? Hardly. For scripture firmly attests in multiple places that those who are going to destruction find themselves ignorant of the truth. (2 Cor 4:1-6, and 1 Cor 1:18.) So we see then that one characteristic of a true Christian is a painful awareness of our own sin. Let us not surpress the Holy Spirit in that affect and fall short of its sanctifying work, for indeed there is a holiness without which no person shall see God ( hebrews 12:14). Now the other error is equally if not far more deadly. Perhaps one buys into the doctrine of perfectionism, yet they are fully aware of their own sin. They find themselves believing that without their own perfection there is no grounds for believing that Christ died for them! How aweful that state is. For now they have been forced to believe that Christ has not effectually died in their place due to their failing to be perfect! And believing that Christ has not merely died for sins, or another, but rather believing Christ died for ME is the very means of salvation, then this doctrine serves only to upset the faith on which we stand and condemn us to hell. Stay clear of this error! In Christ, Beja |
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252 | forgivness of sins | John 3:16 | Beja | 226181 | ||
DD4Truth, You are mistaken concerning eis in acts 2:38 and here is the reference to correct you. This phrase is the subject of endless controversy as men look at it from the standpoint of sacramental or of evangelical theology. In themselves the words can express aim or purpose for that use of "eis" does exist as in 1 Cor. 2:7....But then another usage exists which is just as good Greek as the use of "eis" for aim or purpose. It is seen in Matt. 10:41 in three examples "eis onoma prophetou, diakaiou, mathetou" where it cannot be purpose or aim, but rather the basis or ground, on the basis of the name of prophet, righteous man, disciple, because one is, etc. It is seen again in Matt. 12:41 about the preaching of Jonah....They repented because of (or at) the preaching of Jonah. The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koine generally (Robertson, Grammar, p. 592). One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received (A. T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, III:35-36). This individual is considered to be quite an authority on Greek. Further, if you own a copy of Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin I can point you to a section in it that explains very well how at the same time we are able to say that salvation is by faith alone and yet still say that this faith is never without repentence. In Christ, Beja |
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253 | baptizem | Gal 5:19 | Beja | 226170 | ||
Shaul, The particular brand of baptists from which I come do teach that most of the dramatic spiritual gifts are done away with. I drift a bit from my particular theological heritage in that regard. My understanding of 1 Cor 13 is that as the word of God becomes more abundant and accessable in a particular culture, the more "knowledge based gifts" fade away, oracles being replaced by study, exegisis and familiarity with the word of God. This is quite different from saying that they are gone. Rather in various cultures of the world they are all in the process of fading away although at different points in that process in different cultures. As far as the predistination goes, perhaps it will help if you think of them as predestined to reject or accept the gospel. As you seemed to have indicated in a previous post, nobody accepts Christ without the grace given them to do so (John 6). However, I believe when grace is given them to do so, it is grace that they actually do so. As Christ said, "All that the Father gives to me WILL come to me." That is John 6 also. I'd quote more specifically but my daughter is sitting in my lap watching me type so I can't grab my Bible. Anyways, I hope this helps. In Christ, Beja |
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254 | baptizem | Gal 5:19 | Beja | 226162 | ||
Shaul, I am a baptist pastor living in the southern states of USA. I understand scripture to be teaching basically a Calvinistic doctrine. However, I hesitate to say that because a great many things are assumed by that which a calvinist doesn't actually teach. However, I see we have at least some common ground in both believing in some sort of predistination, and we again also seem to agree that grace is needed for true faith and repentence. I can't see how it applies to this discussion, but I am an amillienialist. Also, though we don't necessarilly need to chase this point, I do not believe that one can be a believer of Jesus Christ and not be a Christian. Ephesians 2 and 3 establish very clearly that Jewish believers and Christian believers have been united in one body in Christ, and now there is no distinction. Anyways, I'm not sure what other information would be helpful. In Christ, Beja |
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255 | baptizem | Gal 5:19 | Beja | 226160 | ||
Shaul, I prefer to say that I believe in the perseverance of the saints rather than once saved always saved, because much of what people intend to mean by "once saved always saved" is very unbiblical. You are constructing very strange ideas from some vary sparse references in scripture. How is it that you have come up with the notion that to have your name written in the book of life means that you will be given the grace to have a chance to repent, but then rejecting that means that your name is then blotted out? It seems like you have built your entire soteriology upon some few verses in revelations while not considering the majority of scripture. 2. Again, you are constructed very wide notions of paridise, heaven and heavens of heavens from no scriptural supportt. What was the real substance in what Christ said was that the theif would be with HIM. Nowhere IN SCRIPTURE do we have any basis to believe that this means something else other than salvation, especially not the notion of some sort of holding facility where he would then be given a chance to decide his eternal fate. All caps in this post were meant to draw attention to emphasis, and not any loss of temper. You actually discussing these things and considering my points is refreshing. In Christ, Beja |
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256 | will suiside send you to hell | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226157 | ||
jlhetrik, I hope EdB will forgive me if I'm misrepresenting his side of the arguement, but let me chime in and try to clarify what I think is being said. Scripture nowhere clearly states that suicides go to hell. What it does teach is that a saved individual will partake of an ongoing sanctification that leads them to greater and greater Christ likeness, despite the fact that we will never be sinless in this life. Now suicide is not simply struggling with a particular sin, but instead it is a radical and finally unresolvable departure from that pattern. Thus, it may cause us to question salvation in the same way we would question the salvation of a professing Christian that is completely overcome in sin and dies with no fruits or evidence of repentence. So the arguement is not one of perfectionism, it is simply having a hard time placing suicide with scriptures affirmation of the ongoing sanctification of believers. I too, for this very reason, struggle to believe a suicide is a saved individual even though I can not rule out the possibility for certain. It simply seems that one of the marks of saving faith is a perseverance which is quite contrary to suicide. May God grant that I am wrong! In Christ, Beja |
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257 | baptizem | Gal 5:19 | Beja | 226155 | ||
Shaul, There are a couple things in your post that concern me. Let me point out some of them. 1.) You seem to divorce faith and repentence from predestination. As if one could have faith and not be predestined. I get this from your saying, "If your Fathers Name was not Written in the Book of Life from the Foundations of the earth - his death bed acceptance is of no use." We can not divorce Book of Life/predestination thinking from faith and repentence. The two always go hand in hand. If one does not repent and have faith, their name is never in the book of life. If one does repent and have faith, their name is always in the book of life. Let me give a scripture to verify this. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth." Do you see here that salvation through believing is the thing being predestined? God has not only predestined the person to salvation, He has also predistined the means which is faith in the gospel. These must always be held together. So if this person received Christ through faith, then their name is indeed in the book of life. 2.) Where do you get the teaching that what Christ said to the theif on the Cross did NOT mean he was saved? Nowhere does scripture say anything of this sort so what has caused you to state it so confidently? 3.) And again, you ask if the Holy spirit can enter a person in the last few minutes of their life? What SPECIFIC scripture makes you think that He can not? 4.) Finally, I have much to object about your view of baptism but that would go far to long for a single post. But in short, this notion of flowing water being required is an error, and the notion that one can not be saved without it is an error. I do hope the person you were responding to will see your errors and not be troubled by them. In Christ, Beja |
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258 | Scripture dealing with depression | Jeremiah | Beja | 226019 | ||
Eklematke, There is some sound godly advice in what Doc has said. The heart of it goes to this question, what if they are depressed because they are lost and under the wrath of God, and they are needing to be taught of faith and repentence and yet we simply shout out, "All is well!" What then have we done if they believe us? They will smile and feel better and go out from us still in a lost state. So there is some dange in always giving the answer, "Don't worry, God is for you!" to all problems. We must inquire as to where the problem is coming from. It may be that quite different verses are needed. Perhaps verses that confirm that they are in a lost state in need of the saving grace of God in Christ Jesus. But so that you know he spoke godly council to you rather than his own opinion, here is a verse that shows you that such hesitancy in answering is indeed scriptural. Pro 18:13 He who gives an answer before he hears, It is folly and shame to him. And here is scripture condemning the unfounded speaking of God's favor upon people. Jer 23:16-22 Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you. They are leading you into futility; They speak a vision of their own imagination, Not from the mouth of the LORD. They keep saying to those who despise Me, 'The LORD has said, "You will have peace"'; And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart, They say, 'Calamity will not come upon you.' But who has stood in the council of the LORD, That he should see and hear His word? Who has given heed to His word and listened? Behold, the storm of the LORD has gone forth in wrath, Even a whirling tempest; It will swirl down on the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD will not turn back Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart; In the last days you will clearly understand it. I did not send these prophets, But they ran. I did not speak to them, But they prophesied. But if they had stood in My council, Then they would have announced My words to My people, and would have turned them back from their evil way and from the evil of their deeds." In Christ, Beja |
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259 | Did God the Father create Jesus | Bible general Archive 4 | Beja | 226007 | ||
Makarios, Very fitting to answer from a quote. I would love to even see an ancient quote answering this objection; I know there must be several. The reason it is so fitting is that not only does it answer the question, but it also serves to remind us that such heretical objections are nothing new. They have been raised before, and they will be raised again. Praise God that we have not only godly men in the present to answer such objections, but that He has gifted us throughout the history of the church with a long lineage of men who have risen up to rebuke challenges to the person and work of our Lord Jesus Christ. In Christ, Beja |
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260 | Isn't Paul free of sin? | Rom 7:25 | Beja | 225977 | ||
Philip, I'm sorry, but I'm having a really hard time believing that you believe what you are saying. I've never met anybody in my life who actually thinks such a thing. So perhaps I am not understanding you clearly. Let me ask a few questions so as to understand if I am hearing you correctly. Are you saying that any saved person will never sin such that: No saved person ever thinks an ungodly thought? No saved person ever covets another person's things? No saved person ever says a hars word in anger? No saved person ever says a slanderous word about somebody else? No saved person is ever lazy or idle at any moment? No saved person is ever disobedient to a parent? No saved person ever lies at any time? No saved person ever has a hard time forgiving? No saved person ever gives God less than his best? No saved person ever looks on another woman with lust? No saved person ever at any moment takes God's name in vain? No saved person ever goes a day without prayer? No saved person ever goes through a day and neglects proper attention to God's word? No saved person ever fails to testify boldly of Christ? Is THIS really what you are saying? Not only in theory, but you are actually saying that in your life you never do any of these things at any moment since your salvation? I ask this with sincerity and no sarcasim. I can't help but think you must mean something other than this with your words, for I have a hard hard time believing that anybody could actually truely believe this. In Christ, Beja |
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