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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
121 | Active Homosexuals: Truly Christian? | Rom 1:21 | Just Read Mark | 87055 | ||
Long road to sanctity. Why do we think homosexuality is any different from other sins? It is always included in a long list of other failings, including sins as common as greed. We do not expect people to be perfect BEFORE they come into the church --- if a gay couple enter the church, seeking, we should not shun them. It could take years of following Jesus for them to sort out how to be faithful. The sanctifying process takes time, as God exposes layer after layer of our darkness IN HIS TIMING. Think about being an alcoholic. There is a mixture of personal choice and genetic predisposition. We have sophisticated support networks to help alcoholics change. We understand how hard their struggle is -- and if they fall off he wagon, we help them back on. Why, then, do we treat our brothers and sisters who struggle with homosexuality with either silence or scorn? This is hypocracy. We have all fallen short, and continue to do so. We are all in utter need God's grace. I am glad the Exodus program exists. I like what Leanne Payne has written as well. Let us learn to understand the struggles of homosexuals, so that we can be effective disciplers and prayer partners. |
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122 | Am I Wrong?? | Bible general Archive 1 | Just Read Mark | 86863 | ||
About human brokeness. The Bible is clear about homosexuality being offensive to God. A sin. But Christians really need to think about how to respond in this situation. You mentioned that many homosexuals have experienced abuse in the past. I think this is true and, more generally, that mis-directed desires are a result of brokeness. When we disparage homosexuals, and treat it as a sin more depraved than any other, we are distorting the facts. We are all broken, and fall short of God's glory. (Romans 3:28) We need to pray for the lives of people caught in this mode of desire. If the church cannot live out the gospel in a way that offers them freedom, our message is solely one of condemnation. This is not the gospel. I believe that the church has been so repressive about homosexuality, that we have not learned what is behind it -- or how to disciple and heal. I want SO MUCH for the church to handle gays and lesbians in a way that is sensitive to their hearts, and their personal histories. As for the politics of gay activism -- there is not a conspiracy theory. I think talking about "legalizing sex with minors" is missing the point. Homosexuality and pedaphelia are not the same thing. Gay activists are smart, know how to lobby, and package their message attractively --- look at the difference between a Pride march (the disgusting liscence aside, look at the exuberant costumes, humour, playfulness) and the March for Jesus (sanctity aside, look at the cliches and heavy-handedness)... Say, for instance, that you have strong homosexual desires. If you can do nothing about them --- which is many people's experience -- should you live in shame, or just accept it? This is why gays would be offended at calling homosexuality a "disease" -- it has become something to celebrate and take pride in. If there is no hope of change, find strength in the way you are. While people may not be able to change themeselves, with God everything is possible. We need to learn how to minister in these people's lives. Our track record -- even with faithful Christians within our churches -- is very bad. We need to look at this problem with humility, and try to see how we can reach these suffering people. We need to learn how to love, not shun. We need to find God's heart for their brokeness, and seek after God's healing for them. Leanne Payne's books on this subject are the best that I know of. Her book, "The Broken Image," continues to be quite useful to a Christian friend of mine who struggles with homosexuality. Yours JRM. |
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123 | My first Poem, Should I keep my dayjob? | Gen 3:21 | Just Read Mark | 86511 | ||
Hey Scribe: I like it. Especially the 3rd couplet. The last line seems a little ponderous. Heavy handed... How about: "And who is this garden priest of Eden? The lamb, upon whom I'm feedin'." Sorry, that's horrible. "The Lamb that saints believe in." But really, I think it needs another edit on the ending - you really need to nail it. Some ambiguity is Ok --give enough that people can think it through. Until then, well, a day job can give you the freedom to create without compromising ;-) |
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124 | Why did Jesus remove the man? | Mark 8:22 | Just Read Mark | 85943 | ||
Role of Imagination in Interpretation. I've been thinking about some of your questions. I think people have been hesitant to answer because, simply, the text is not clear. With this website, the goal is to be clear with the text, and not speculative. Still, your questions are good ones. Since the text is not clear, people will interpret the "motives" of our Lord differently. But it is good to ask about motives -- and to try to understand what Jesus is thinking. I agree with prazn -- praying about the text and your own heart is good. Also, I think you can allow yourself to empathize, to imagine yourself in the text. You could come up with a faithful elaboration of the narrative, as a story-writer might do. As long as you recognize that your version is NOT authoritative, as scripture -- I think this kind of imaginative entry into the gospel narrative is good. I have read treatments of gospel passages like this. For instance, telling the prodigal son story from different points of view (the father, the prodigal, the elder brother). If pursued with humility, our God-given imaginations can be so fruitful. I pray that God would grant us "the mind of Christ" -- including the wealth of the Christian imagination. Yours, JRM |
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125 | Are churches preaching cheap grace? | Rev 18:4 | Just Read Mark | 85430 | ||
Church is essential. Hello GoodNewsMinister -- I was struck by your withdrawal from Church life. I know many people that have been disillusioned with church -- and found it superficial, lacking in life-transforming faith. But, in my experience, their faith becomes interiorized and fruitless by being cut off from believers. No church is perfect. Some are more faithful than others. BUT we are called, I think, to be part of Christ's communal body. If God has granted you such a vivid vision of what faithfulness means, perhaps you have the gifts to revitalize a church in your area? Also remember, however, that working under authority of church leaders has benefits (even when leaders aren't perfect) because, if we each make up our own version of the gospel, we are prone to self-delusion. The church -- serving God in community -- is a blessing. Yours JRM |
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126 | Creation Account: Mythical or Not? | Gen 1:27 | Just Read Mark | 85427 | ||
Myth. Well, apparently I am the heretic in our midst. I have appreciated reading your posts. Especially Pastor Glen's --- who uses the most symbolic reading of the serpent to rebuke my mythologizing. So thanks. I am not yet convinced, but I have an open mind. Frankly, I am surprised that there is such a consensus on the forum since, as Just Me points out, many people that take the Bible seriously - and stake their lives on it as God's word - interpret the opening chapters of Genesis as mythical (but not untrue). I guess that large swath of the faithful don't use this forum? I have a "Funk and Wagnalls" dictionary in front of me. It includes a few definitions that Hank did not include. Let's remember that words can have multiple meanings -- they don't all apply in each circumstance. "A theme, motif, character type in literature that expresses significant truths about human life or human nature" "An allegory or parable used to explain or illustrate a philosophic concept." "A traditional story, usually focusing on the deeds of gods or heroes, often in explanation of some natural phenomenon, as the origin of the sun, etc. It purposts to be historical, but is uesful to historians prinicipally for what it reveals about the culture of the peoples it describes or among whom it was current." I would add that these definitions are about myths in general --- so the humanist assumptions (particularly in the 3rd I mentioned) will make us uncomfortable. My position, however, is that the creation accounts are GOD'S stories of origins. Thus, they are timeless and true. ........ There's my bit. I think I will bow out of this discussion, because I don't want to divisive -- and because apparently I have some research to do. My own devotional study, in recent months, has been Mark, Acts, and Isaiah -- and I don't feel I should be focusing on this question at this time. Peace. |
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127 | The "short " ending of Mark? | Mark 16:8 | Just Read Mark | 85386 | ||
As Narrative. Thanks, Pastor Glen (and Radioman, 2). Let me clarify this aspect of my question. I used the word "bleak" simply because the very last words of the shorter version has the women confused, afraid, and silent. This is bleak, compared to the resounding proclamation of good news we find in the other gospels. The notes in my Bibles (NIV and NRSV) say something like: "The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have the longer ending..." In many other manuscripts, the ending is there, but is marked as questionable. So, assuming the accounts can be harmonized historically (which I believe they can) -- my question is not "Did Jesus really rise?" or "Did the women eventually get over their shock and spread the news?" My question is: what was THIS Gospel trying to say, by ending in such an abrupt and shocking way? I believe, in reading the gospels, we need to pay attention to the structure (what comes after what, the sequence of stories, etc...) So, somehow, this ending carries some meaning. So, any suggestions? Yours JRM PS. -- I, too, am appreciative of the longer ending. I am glad to be able to read it, and acknowledge the wisdom in it -- even if it seems to be a later addition. (I think those "snake handler" churches might have some re-thinking to do, however.) I am not seeking to throw passages out of the Bible. |
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128 | Are we all descendants of Adam and Eve? | Genesis | Just Read Mark | 85159 | ||
Myth, Genesis, Paul. Hello Kat. Please understand that, when I say myth I don't mean "falsehood" or "fairytale". God's myth is as different from the myths of other cultures, as the authority of Biblical history is different from reading human historians. I believe the opening chapters of Genesis are authoritative --- what the meaning of the text is true, but not to be taken literally. It is pretty hard to know what Paul meant, when we only have his words. Someday, we'll be able to ask him face to face. If Paul understood the story of Adam and Eve as mythic, he would still write the same passage --- just as I would say "with Adam and Eve, humanity entered into sin." Since I allow this story to shape my entire view of human nature, and humanity's relationship with God, I speak the language of the myth. I don't need to double-think about it --- I embrace the story as the truth about people. When Paul says, "I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me..." (Galatians 2:20) he is not saying that Paul has been crucified --- yet it is true that he has "died to himself." So we accept his language as a powerful metaphor. But we don't fear that people we say that Christ's crucifixion is a metaphor, do we? So just because one part of a passage is literal doesn't mean the other part is. The same with the passages you quoted. I would further add that, until the last few hundred years, people blended mythic thinking and analytic thinking much more fluidly. I think our concern with literal reading has only been so intense since the "Enlightenment" advanced empiricism as the only way of knowing truth. So, in a way, taking the early accounts of Genesis literally is adopting the enlightenment's criteria for truth. I don't mean to cloud the issue. It's just that I find taking the opening passages of Genesis literally clouds the issues for many people -- and we spend our time talking about DNA and incest and theories that can't be proven. I find it clearer to say: "I won't trouble with those controversies -- I will diligently seek what the text says about God's plan for us." Other people responding to my post have suggested that I must be an evolutionist. I don't really know either way --- but I do know it is complicated. The universe does seem to be very old --- and I can either react to that by saying "No, that's not what Genesis says." --- or I can say "Wow, IF that's true, then God's creative power is so fantastic!" --and get on with the gospel. In University, a Christian students group set up a debate about creation and evolution. As convincing as either side was, the impression I left with was, "both sides are missing the point." I would put that kind of debate in the "how many angles on the head of a pin" category. I left wondering how many could have been reached with the gospel -- even using the same passages. If Christian's can't agree on how the passage should be read scientifically (6 days, metaphorical days, mythic, etc) then the scientific reading doesn't make a great evangelistic tool. I think the different streams of Christians do, however, agree on the inspiration, importance, and meaning of the passages. Embrace the meaning. |
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129 | Studying O.T. is creating problems. | Genesis | Just Read Mark | 85138 | ||
Ideas on how to grow. Hello Free Thinker. I haven't entered conversation with you yet, but have listened in a little. I hope you will keep seeking -- and I have found this forum to be a helpful element for me... There can be "argument" -- and I've contributed some of that myself, I guess -- but there is also a love of the Bible that is encouraging. I think the format of this forum can tend to focus on the smaller issues - and this can contribute to argumentiveness. Apparent contradictions in the text, rival interpretations of the book of Revelation, who married who after Adam and Eve.... These questions can bog me down, and probably you as well. I encourage you to seek the big questions. Who does Jesus claim to be? What does it mean to be a disciple? How can I open myself to God's love? Also, I find it best to pray even amid doubts. Perhaps that sounds "hypocritical" to you, but it's not. We don't need to have it all figured out -- God understands our state of confusion. We need God's help to figure it out! So I often pray a prayer found in the gospel of Mark: "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief." (Mark 9:24) I have two more thoughts to offer. First, it is good to get a systematic sense of what Christianity is -- and books are better than this website for that. The forum encourages us to bounce from topic to topic -- which is good in some ways, but doesn't get very deep. So I encourage you to read the book mommapbs mentioned (Evidence that demands a verdict). John Stott could be another author to look at. Secondly -- if you have a Christian friend you feel comfortable talking to face to face -- that is so much more fun and deep than the forum. I have loved being in weekly Bible studies, where tough questions can be asked -- and people are ready to live what they learn. I am sure there is a group like this meeting near where you live --- pretty much anywhere in the world! Just dig a little, and you'll find one. I hope you don't think I am discouraging you from the Forum. It's just that I sense your real hunger -- and I too am hungry -- and so I'm sharing some ideas about how to grow. Ask the big questions through prayer, books, and studying in community. From my experience, I'd say that God is pursuing you, even as you are seeking God. Peace. |
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130 | What are the implications of Christ resu | Revelation | Just Read Mark | 85050 | ||
Another scripture that speaks very clearly about the relationship of the resurrection and our lives as Christians is Romans 6:1-14. It portrays the FREEDOM that we receive as God's gift --- and also the commitment demanded of Christ's followers. Now, I agree with Hank that looking at the Bible with non-Christians is powerful. But there is a story that is very clear, that I have shared with people (and also drew me to Christ as a young Christian) ---it is a story (like a parable) called "The Ragman" by Walter Wangerin. You can find it easily on the internet. May God bless your conversations, and the hearts of your friends. |
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131 | Must a woman have long hair | 1 Corinthians | Just Read Mark | 85030 | ||
Chemotherapy. I don't really understand what is meant by "her hair is her glory" --- surely not sex appeal. I find the elaboration in your study Bible useful. This issue immediately makes me think of the women I have known (my wife included) who have lost all of their hair due to illness, and how devastating it can be. I would not want to burden them with a prescriptive view of this text. |
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132 | anyone got any ideas on this scripture? | Prov 12:27 | Just Read Mark | 85015 | ||
Speaking of starting something and not following through, here is one of my favorite proverbs: "The sluggard buries a hand in the dish, and is too tired to bring it back to the mouth." (Proverbs 27:15) Isn't that fantastic? In fact, the whole section surrounding that verse deals with laziness -- including the paralysis of irrational fear (v.13). These passages where useful to me during a job-search, when I was feeling discouraged. These words continue to help me to "follow-through". |
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133 | Why would we de-value story-telling? | Genesis | Just Read Mark | 84896 | ||
Thank you for the story. Obviously, this kind of story is not substitute for pouring over the Scriptures --- but it does help to clarify the major structure. Plus it's fun to read. It is good to put the gospel in our own words, because it helps us to internalize it deeply. (Like when the angel tells John, "Eat this scroll.") Is the story you summarized called "The Divine Romance"? My sister read a book by that title and like it, but haven't read it. |
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134 | Are we all descendants of Adam and Eve? | Genesis | Just Read Mark | 84894 | ||
Thank you, Tim, for your good questions. The first question is essential, and frankly I will have to look into it again. It has been a while since I have worked it through. Off the top of my head, there are things like the poetic structure of the days in Genesis 1, the fact that there are days before there is a sun, the 2nd version of the creation story that has a different emphasis... Basically, there is a huge symbolic resonance - and lack of historical data - to everything that happens. The tower of Babel. The ark. I realize I am presenting a generalized case here. But when it gets to Abram and Sarai, there is so much more particular information about their travels, their characters, their ethical choices. Please understand -- when I suggest certain passages are intended to be mythic, I am not diminishing their value. I believe God has presented these myths for us to live by. Secondly -- New Testament references to Adam and Eve. I don't see any trouble here, actually. The New Testament writers lived by the Adam and Eve story just as we should. Those passages still make sense either way. I do believe that rebellion against God is a key part of being human (as Adam and Eve show us) and that Jesus reconciles us to God -- so Romans 5 is a concise and powerful explication of this. The geneologies (ie. in Luke 3) pose interesting problems. The fact that the 2 geneologies for Jesus (Matthew and Luke) are different is a problem anyway - aside from Adam and Eve. So I have taken them to make a point like this -- Jesus is a descendent of David (how exactly doesn't matter) and thus fulfills the promises of God; -- the structured number of generations (whether they are literal or not) express that God is the God of history, and is in control. -- Jesus is not some upstart, but is the fulfillment of the entire history of Israel. So some geneologies are Jewish record keeping, but others (like at the beginning of the gospels) are freighted with other significance. These other meanings were so urgent, that discrepancies in the details pale in comparison. Turning back to the early geneologies in Genesis (and quotes elsewhere) -- their function is to emphasize "all of humanity is one family." Would you permit me a moment of conjecture? Perhaps the geneologies around Abraham are historical -- especially since the Hebrews identified themselves as followers of the "God of Abraham." Perhaps the earlier chapters where contributed later -- but adopted the structure of geneologies elsewhere in Genesis. Thus linking the mythic truth of origins to the particular lives of specific people. To put this digression in perspective -- I will reiterate my main point. It doesn't really matter whether these bits are historical or mythical, so long as we really commit ourselves to live by the message it conveys. |
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135 | Are we all descendants of Adam and Eve? | Genesis | Just Read Mark | 84885 | ||
Genres in the Bible. I think most students of the Bible agree that there are different genres and modes of communication in the Bible. To say that one section is myth, another is allegory, and another is history in no way reduces the authority of the Book. In fact, to flatten out these differences is to misinterpret them. Yes, this does become difficult (who said truth was easy?) Perhaps we don't know the genres, or the cues to how they shift. It is easy to say that the Psalms are poetry, Kings is history, etc. --- but it gets trickier because genres change within individual books. For example, Paul uses hymns in his writing -- which is beautiful, powerful, and provides us with a glimpse of the faith of the earliest Christians. I am not suggesting something beyond the "normal understanding of language." I'm sure we both shudder to see books that "reveal a secret code revealed in the Bible that predicted 9/11." But we do use language in complicated, subtle ways all the time --- why wouldn't the Bible? Look at the complicated theories people work out to explain the literal interpretations. I find the mythic reading less cluttered, and more straight forward --- more akin to "the normal understanding of language." But "straightforward" is not the criteria for Truth either. We need to read the text closely, study the history and the genres, and pray. And commit to live by what we learn. |
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136 | Are we all descendants of Adam and Eve? | Genesis | Just Read Mark | 84880 | ||
I was not promoting a highly subjective approach that says "this is MY reading." You will notice my post began with "THE MEANING of Adam and Eve." At the same time, Radioman, I have found no objective platform from which to read the text. We study, and we pray that the Holy Spirit will guide us. It is hard work. As for the Elders, they do not always agree. Take a longer look at Biblical interpretation, and you will see that passages are sometimes taken one way, sometimes another. This is not spurious rebellion --- this is the faithful reading of committed Christians. Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Barth, Bonhoffer..... You mention "superficial interpretation." I guess I was trying to move the conversation away from questions of lineage (a superficial issue) to the deeper aspects of the text. Of course I am after Truth with a capital T. But it seems to be a messy business, even with the Word of Truth in our hands. Yours, JRM. |
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137 | Family Values Acts 18, where?? | NT general Archive 1 | Just Read Mark | 84747 | ||
Wow. What a moving description. I have been reading Acts lately (just read about Peter's vision of the animals) -- so as I get further in, I will pay more close attention to this couple. Thanks. |
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138 | By the bible, is nuclear winter possible | Gen 8:22 | Just Read Mark | 84551 | ||
Thank you for your thoughts. Indeed we have to place our priorities carefully -- but also in a balanced way. (I think abortion is an important issue -- but if we ONLY focused on that, well....) There are a lot of societal issues that need legislation (ie. scrubbers on smoke stacks) but also things I can do on my own. Limiting car use, living close to work and church, buying local produce (I've been getting a food box from a local farm: so fresh, it's amazing."Organic" too), upgrading insulation in the house... I am not radical or thorough about these things, but I am trying to move forward, and I consider them small acts of faithfulness. If we all picked a few issues, and diligently worked out faithful responses, things would be much better. For example, I had a friend who was very passionate about the situation in Sudan -- and she invited people from our church to attend a protest raising the issues (including the role of a Canadian oil company) -- so we could all help because she did a lot of research and had a vision for justice. In our local abundance, we can be blind to the needs of the world around us. Lord, have mercy on us as we try to serve. Peace to you. |
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139 | By the bible, is nuclear winter possible | Gen 8:22 | Just Read Mark | 84501 | ||
So does trusting in God's promises entail continuing with the status quo? This promise in Genesis is very general -- it is restoring the world after the flood. This does not mean that the harvest will always be bountiful, or that all manner of plants would continue to grow. This promise leaves room for a great degree of devastation on this earth. That is why I mentioned proverbs 26:27. It doesn't need a complete anihilation to be relevant : it can relate to the health of the ecosystem in my neighbourhood, for instance. My feeling, from this thread in general, is that people will look to God's sovereignty as an excuse to be irresponsible. Don't get me wrong: I believe God is sovereign. But often, in the Biblical record, our sovereign God allows people reap what they sow. |
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140 | By the bible, is nuclear winter possible | Gen 8:22 | Just Read Mark | 84488 | ||
Bible, Science, and Global Warming. Well, I am still interested in discussing this. I am learning how to engage this forum... and I am finding that, if I put more than one idea in a post, people respond to the idea I was least interested in. I need to tighten up a little. Please do not respond to this opening paragraph. The elements of this thread that I am interested in are: 1) How does the Bible affect our engagement in concerns about environmental change? 2) How do we employ science fruitfully and faithfully (in a way that honours Jesus) to make wise and ethical choices? 3) When there are serious concerns - but not scientific consensus - should Christians not err on the side of environmental caution (as opposed to the status quo)? This thread began discussing a promise from Genesis. I propose that a text that is more relevant to global change (and nuclear proliferation) is Proverbs 26:27 --- "Whoever digs a pit will fall into it, and a stone will come back on the one who starts it rolling." May the peace of Christ surround you. |
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