Results 1201 - 1220 of 1251
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Results from: Notes Author: mark d seyler Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1201 | Is the rapture biblically supported? | 1 Thess 4:17 | mark d seyler | 132438 | ||
Hi Tim, I was not expecting arguement; I recognize you know more about Greek than I do, and I value your input. I am content to leave this for now until I am able to learn more, which I will happily share! And whether this word means departure (the Geneva Bible translates it that way), or rebellion (every other translation I've seen says that), both fit my understanding of the end times, and it would not suprise me if God meant both! Thank you for your alway kind and encouraging words. Love in Christ, Mark |
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1202 | Is the rapture biblically supported? | 1 Thess 4:17 | mark d seyler | 132383 | ||
Hi Kalos, With all due respect to the Reverend Best, how can these judgments come after the second coming, and fit with the timeline required in the book of Revelation (see below): In Revelation 11 we are told of two witnesses who prophecy for 1260 days. During this time, fire comes from their mouths to devour anyone who would try to hurt them. They can send any plague on the earth anytime they want. When they have finished their testimony, the beast from the bottomless pit (that which Mystery Babylon rides, with 10 horns which are 10 kings – Rev. 17:8, 12) will kill them. They will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days, then come back to life and ascend into heaven. In the same hour is a great earthquake, and following this, we are told that the second woe is past, and the third comes quickly. In Rev. 8:13, following the sounding of the fourth trumpet, we are told of an angel declaring 3 woes of the 3 remaining trumpets, which will sound. The first key here is that they prophesy until their testimony is done, and then they are overcome (Rev. 11:7). According to Daniel 7:21-22, the beast, whose 10 horns are 10 kings, prevails over the saints until the Ancient of Days comes, and the kingdom is given to the saints. The duration that the beast overcomes the saints is 3 1/2 years (Dan 7:25, Rev. 13:3-5). Jesus returns to earth to establish His rule, which the saints will share, at the end of the 70th week (Dan. 9:24-27, Rev. 20:4). If the beast overcomes the saints for 3 1/2 years ending at the Second Coming, and the two witnesses prophesy for 3 1/2 years until the beast overcomes them, then they must be prophesying during the first 3 1/2 years. The second key is in the second woe, the sounding of the sixth trumpet (loosing 4 angels bound at the Euphrates to kill 1/3 of mankind, and 200,000,000 ‘horsemen’ with power to kill). In Rev. 9:11, following the fifth trumpet (a five month plague of demonic ‘locusts’), we are told that the first woe is past, and two more are coming. In Revelation 11:14, “the second woe is past, and the third comes quickly”. These judgments are happening sequentially, one finishing before the next begins. If the second woe is passed 3 1/2 days after the middle of the Tribulation, the first woe, or the fifth trumpet, begins 5 months or more before the midpoint. Therefore, the seals are opened and trumpets sounded, at least through the fifth, and possibly the sixth, before the middle of the Tribulation. Joel's Blood Moon, and Matthew's dark moon, are not the same thing. Unfortunately, I have very little time right now, but I will follow up later. Love in Christ, Mark |
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1203 | Is the rapture biblically supported? | 1 Thess 4:17 | mark d seyler | 132375 | ||
Hi Tim, My notes on this are all at home, along with my tools, so I am working off of memory here. If I recollect correctly, apostasy is from apo (from) and histemi (stand), and as a noun is used one other place in the NT, (Acts, where Paul is accused of leading others to 'forsake' the teachings of Moses - clearly a spiritual departure). As a verb it is used several places, 10 times being translated depart, once fall away, and twice withdrew/drew away. The most literal meaning would be "stand from". The context of those places that it is translated "depart" would seem to me to require that translation. I think this verse in II Thess. could be translated either way, forsaking or departure. It seems to me to be in greater harmony with the rest of scripture if it refers to the rapture, although I know the literal translation of the verse does not require it. Paul is reminding the Thess. church of things he taught them which we are not privy to! I do not base my beliefs regarding the rapture on this particular verse. I think there are a great many other scriptures that show fact of the rapture, and when it will come in relation to other events (not that we will know the day or the hour!). I am purely a novice with Greek, and rely on reference books and teachers. For this information I used Strongs, and looked at each occurance. I look forward to hearing your take on this. Love in Christ, Mark |
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1204 | Is the rapture biblically supported? | 1 Thess 4:17 | mark d seyler | 132346 | ||
Hi Janae, God bless you! My email address is markdseyler@yahoo.com. I will be happy to share anything I have, and to tell you the truth, I am always interested in review of my studies, lest I am in error! Love in Christ, Mark |
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1205 | Is the rapture biblically supported? | 1 Thess 4:17 | mark d seyler | 132334 | ||
Hi Janae, 2 Thessalonians 2 1 ¶ And, brothers, we entreat you, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together to Him, 2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ has come. 3 ¶ Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, (Jay P. Green Literal Version) To my reading, the Thessalonian people were thinking that the Day of Christ had come. Paul say no, first must be the "apostasia", falling away, or departure, and also the man of sin to be revealed. These are prerequisite prophecies to the Day of Christ, which I understand to be the Day of the Lord, not prerequisite to the rapture. I beleive that the rapture is the "apostasia", which must come before the Day of the Lord. Since when did the Church not experience spiritual falling away? This is a very divisive topic, most unfortunately. I encourage you most strongly to study this issue for youself, without any preconceptions, and check every referrence others offer to prove their sides. Myself, I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, although not in the same way as my church taught and still teaches. There are very good points to be made by the pre-wrath view, addressing issues that are problematic with the traditional pre-trib view, however, the question is "when does the wrath of God begin?". I believe it begins at the very beginning of the tribulation as the Day comes as a sudden destruction, as a thief in the night. (see 2nd Peter). I have done much personal study of this issue, and have far too many notes and scriptures to post on this forum, however, if you wish to review my studies, you may contact me via email (see my profile). The Bible does teach Jesus' immanent return. Mark 13:32 "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch." Count the days from the abomination that causes desolation, and you will know when Jesus' "shining forth", His coming in glory, will be. What is this coming, which Jesus does not say "watch for the antichrist" or "watch for the tribulation", but rather "watch for the Son of Man"? Keep looking up! Love in Christ, Mark |
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1206 | Is the rapture biblically supported? | 1 Thess 4:17 | mark d seyler | 132190 | ||
Hello! I've been looking at this subject, and have been hearing people talking about the pre-wrath view. Do you agree with this basic timeline of the 70th Week, and if so, where does pre-wrath rapture fit? In Revelation 11 are two witnesses who prophecy for 1260 days. When they have finished their testimony, the beast from the bottomless pit (that which Mystery Babylon rides, with 10 horns which are 10 kings – Rev. 17:8, 12) will kill them. They will lie in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days, then come back to life and ascend into heaven. In the same hour is a great earthquake, and following this, we are told that the second woe is past, and the third comes quickly. In Rev. 8:13, following the sounding of the fourth trumpet, we are told of an angel declaring 3 woes of the 3 remaining trumpets, which will sound. They prophesy until their testimony is done, and then they are overcome (Rev. 11:7). According to Daniel 7:21-22, the beast, whose 10 horns are 10 kings, prevails over the saints until the Ancient of Days comes, and the kingdom is given to the saints. The duration that the beast overcomes the saints is 3 1/2 years (Dan 7:25, Rev. 13:3-5). Jesus returns to earth to establish His rule, which the saints will share, at the end of the 70th week (Dan. 9:24-27, Rev. 20:4). If the beast overcomes the saints for 3 1/2 years ending at the Second Coming, and the two witnesses prophesy for 3 1/2 years until the beast overcomes them, then they must be prophesying during the first 3 1/2 years. Another point of interest is in the second woe, the sounding of the sixth trumpet (loosing 4 angels bound at the Euphrates to kill 1/3 of mankind, and 200,000,000 ‘horsemen’ with power to kill). In Rev. 9:11, following the fifth trumpet (a five month plague of demonic ‘locusts’), we are told that the first woe is past, and two more are coming. In Revelation 11:14, “the second woe is past, and the third comes quickly”. These judgments are happening sequentially, one finishing before the next begins. If the second woe is passed 3 1/2 days after the middle of the Tribulation, the first woe, or the fifth trumpet, begins 5 months or more before the midpoint. Therefore, the seals are opened and trumpets sounded, at least through the fifth, and possibly the sixth, before the middle of the Tribulation. What begins the "wrath" that the rapture precedes? Love in Christ, Mark |
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1207 | who are the sons of God? | Gen 6:2 | mark d seyler | 130929 | ||
GB, I apologize for my mistake, I meant Rev. 21:7 (not 20:7). Matthew Henry, or any commentator, interests me to the degree that he agrees with the plain reading of scripture. I do not seek to twist scripture. I make every effort to set aside preconceptions, and simply read what is written. This is what I wrote in my previous post. “There are two types of referrences to God's sons. One is the the Only Begotten Son, Jesus, the others are beings which are direct creations of God, angels and the born-again.” The following are referrences which do not refer to Jesus: Ge 6:2 “That the sons (ben) of God (elohiym) saw the daughters of men that they were fair ; and they took them wives of all which they chose.” Matthew Henry interprets this referrence to “sons of God” as “professors of religion”, however, this is not in harmony with Job 38:7. Ge 6:4 “There were giants (nephilim) in the earth in those days and also after that, when the sons ben of God elohiym came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.” If the “sons of God” in these two verses were human, why were their offspring “giants” (lit. nephilim – fallen ones), the “mighty men of renown”? Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons ben of God elohiym came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (this verse does not show that Satan is a “son of God”, but that there are a group know as “sons of God”) Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons ben of God elohiym came to present themselves before the LORD and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD . (Makes the same point as above) Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together , and all the sons ben of God elohiym shouted for joy? (While God laid the foundations of the earth) (These sons of God could not be humans, but are a group of beings present as God created prior to creating man.) Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God , they are the sons huios of God . (Now we are looking at a new classification of beings, who are the sons of God.) Ro 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons huios of God. Ga 4:6 And because ye are sons huios, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son huios into your hearts, crying Abba, Father. 7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant , but a son huios; and if a son huios, then an heir of God through Christ. Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son huios. These verses all show, all the more so as you read them in their context, that God make us sons when we are born again. Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (God the Father will have many children, called “sons”) These scriptures appear to use the term “sons of God” as a technical description. Jesus, as the Only Begotten Son, does not belong to this classification, as denoted by “Only Begotten Son”. As the scriptures make clear in many places, Jesus is pre-emminant in all things. In recognizing the way the Bible uses such terms as “sons of God”, “son of God”, and “Son of God”, we need not take away from Who Jesus is. Sincerity is nothing. If I read it, I believe it. If you have a dispute with these ideas, your dispute is not with me but with the Word of God. Love in Christ, Mark |
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1208 | who are the sons of God? | Gen 6:2 | mark d seyler | 130805 | ||
If you examine Rev. 20:7 and Job 1:6, as well as all referrences to the "sons of God", you can determine whether or not this is a complete answer. There are two types of referrences to God's sons. One is the the Only Begotten Son, Jesus, the others are beings which are direct creations of God, angels and the born-again. But don't take my word for it, check your Bible. Love in Christ, Mark |
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1209 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 129463 | ||
To Karen, Hank, BradK, New Creature, Tim, EdB, Country Girl, DocTrinsograce, and all others who have been participating in this thread: I appreciate all of your thoughts and input, and has anyone else noticed that we have been on this often controversial subject for nearly a week and a half without being restricted? Sharing the truth in love! Love in Christ, Mark |
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1210 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 129462 | ||
Hi Karen, Thank you for responding. I think you sum up the issue well. I think we are in basic agreement, and that our primary focus is on the Lord. Nothing I ever do will ever take away from all that He has done. Amazing Grace!!!!! Regardless of what part I may or may not play in my salvation, as Paul says in Romans, “I know that in me, that is in my flesh, dwells no good thing,” and certainly, before regeneration, all I have is my flesh. God calls, and I respond with the ability to respond that He gives me. The best I can come up with is that I supply the tiniest little consent to what He wants to do. I especially love Ephesians 1 for what it says about this. “3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ: 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: 5 having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,” God wants a family, and our amazing gift is to be a part of His family. 9 ”according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him 10 unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say, 11 in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;” “Him Who works all things after the counsel of His will.” Everything happens because it serves God’s purpose, and He alone chooses His purpose. This is what “sovereign” means to me. God does what He wants to. “It would seem that God has established His plan of salvation in such a way that He gets all of the glory for it. We are only able to do (repent and believe) what God enables us to do” – I think you put this very well, and I completely agree. Jesus said in Luke 13:34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!” This sounds as if there were something that God wanted but that He did not have. Titus 2:11-12 “For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” This leads me to thing that God has convicted all people of their sin, but only some respond. For us that are saved, the hearing of the word was mixed with faith. (Heb. 4:2) It is not mixed with faith in those that hear His word but not to salvation. Anyway, this is how it works with me as I study this. I go around and around and around. . . Let us rejoice that our names are written in heaven! Love in Christ, Mark |
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1211 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 129453 | ||
Hi Karen, Please see my post 129449. Thank you! Love in Christ, Mark |
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1212 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 129449 | ||
Hi Hank and Karen, Here is some additional information. I hope this helps to clarify my position. Luke 13:3 “I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” Repent – This is some information from Robertson's NT Word Pictures: Except ye repent (ean me metanoete). Present active subjunctive of metanoeo, to change mind and conduct, linear action, keep on changing. Condition of third class, undetermined, but with prospect of determination. A key element is that this is active. When Jesus says “except you repent”, this is something I have to do. If I do not do it, I will likewise perish. “except ye” – this is a condition which I must meet. This topic was more fully explored starting with posts 128949 and 128921. Please read my posts carefully. I have never retracted my understanding that there is a part that we play in being “saved”. If there are places that seem as if I did, I apologize. This is a complicated subject to discuss clearly. As I understand the Bible, unless “I” repent, “I” will not be saved. The fact is, we are discussing predestination vs. freewill, except with different vocabulary. I am perfectly happy to discuss any Bible subject, I have no taboo subjects, because God gave it all to us for our edification. I think changing our vocabulary can be useful to avoid the established “hot buttons”, although we will still come to the same conclusions ultimately. The Bible makes plain statements, such as the one above about repentance, which I believe must be plainly received, and plainly acted upon. I am aware of other statements such as “none come but the Father draw them”, and “you have not chosen Me, I have chosen you”. The Bible clearly teaches both predestination and freewill, and it seems to teach both without restriction. God’s choice is sovereign, and man’s repentance is required. How do I express this truth? I don’t know, except to teach both. Love in Christ, Mark |
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1213 | Created "in " Christ Jesus | Eph 2:10 | mark d seyler | 129356 | ||
Hi J. Elkins, I agree with you that the Bible declares only one truth, and that there is no contradiction. One of the ways I use to try to determine I my understanding is a correct one is to see if it is in complete harmony with the rest of God's Word. With this in mind, I have two questions for you. The first is this: Do we maintain our salvation by our righteous living (by which we could boast), or do we know we have salvation because of our righteous living (by which we know we have been changed by God)? How I answer this will determine how I read a great many verses that can go either way. The second is this: How do you regard the salvation of the thief on the cross, who was not baptized, and that of the gentiles in Acts 10:44, who received the baptism of the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism? I actually have one other question, more of a logical issue. If water baptism is required for salvation, does this mean that "death-bed" conversions are impossible? Love in Christ, Mark |
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1214 | once saved always saved? | 2 Tim 4:18 | mark d seyler | 129101 | ||
Hi Karen, In response to your question of "born-again believer", Paul in 1 Cor. 15:2 speaks of those who are not saved having "believed in vain". James tells us (2:19) that the "demons believe and tremble", they are not, of course, saved. I generally say "believer" meaning "born-again", but being born again is what matters (John 3). Love in Christ, Mark |
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1215 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 128985 | ||
Hi Doc Trinsograce and Country Girl, I consider this passage in view of 1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us." This church of Loadicea has become almost entirely composed of those who are spoken of by John, those who are not of us, those who would eventually go out and be made manifest. But Jesus is not going to wait for that. When our Father chooses, Jesus will call out His own, leaving a completely apostate church behind, which He will spit out of His mouth. Meanwhile, in the time that remains, He knocks, seeking to be invited into those that claim His name, but do not actually have fellowship. I have never thought of Jesus outside the door bringing judgment because He wants to come in for fellowship. This is just how I understand this passage, but it seems to be in harmony with the rest of His Word. Love in Christ, Mark |
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1216 | The New Birth - A Survey | NT general Archive 1 | mark d seyler | 128983 | ||
Hi New Creature, Personally I enjoy this type of discussion as it challenges me to truly know and understand what I believe. Your tone has not been aggressive, condescending, or otherwise negative, and I, again, have profited from our exchanges. It is my hope and prayer that you do also. Love in Christ, Mark |
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1217 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 128981 | ||
Hi Brad, I would agree 100 percent that faith and works are, as you say, two sides of the same coin. I've always liked to say that if I believe the room I am in is burning, I will run. Blessings and Love in Christ, Mark |
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1218 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 128977 | ||
Hi Tim, That sounds like a neccessary order. Perhaps what I am thinking is that when I come to Christ, believing that He is, and I repent, which is turning away from disobedience, He saves me, and enables me to obey. Comments? Love in Christ, Mark |
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1219 | The New Birth - A Survey | NT general Archive 1 | mark d seyler | 128975 | ||
Hi New Creature, I don't know how to go beyond these answers, but that doesn't surprise me, as we read things like: "choose this day whom you shall serve" and "you have not chosen me, but I have chosen you". "How I have longed to gather you together...but you would not" and "(God) who works all things together according to the counsel of His own will". I have both been enjoying and profiting from this discussion. This one thing I know: Salvation is from our Lord. We will rejoice that our names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life! Love in Christ, Mark |
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1220 | Human Power? | John 15:5 | mark d seyler | 128970 | ||
Hi Brad, So I would go on to say that we obey because we believe. Belief and obedience go hand in hand, as "faith without works is dead". If we obey, but do not believe, these are dead works. If we believe, but do not obey, this is dead faith. I think I would ammend my statement to be "Believing, we obey. Obeying, we are saved." Would you agree with this? Love in Christ, Mark |
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