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Results from: Notes Author: keliy Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Lucifer's fall from grace | Bible general Archive 4 | keliy | 221912 | ||
Hello Azure, You have quite the discerning eye, and I commend you. I am sorry for any misunderstanding, but the problem is with Lockman's program, which is otherwise one of the best I have seen. I had gone to my brother's house and when I logged in as keliy on his computer, it does say, 'welcome keliy' in the log-out option box. But when I posted, the thread says that the post did not come from keliy It must be the cookie stored in the son of our mother's computer that causes the post within the thread to be identified as sonofmom. Please do not judge according to laws written by Lockman Foundation. to cause my brother to be in violation, and jeopoardize his privelege to enjoy this forum is not a problem with mis-posting. I might have to sign in under my brothers name to avoid further confusion, which would be dishonest, since this program does not allow two different users on his computer. please accept my apologies for any confusion. Lord Bless, keliy |
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2 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221737 | ||
What's up, doc? Are you saying that age or length of history allows one to violate the terms of use? Shall I truckle over to his doctrines for that reason alone? Should God's word take a back seat to age? I tried to straighten him out as to what my post said earlier but he continued to push his heretical views. He read my post with little spurious effort and he deserved what he got. I am not sorry for asking him to go elsewhere. |
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3 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221733 | ||
CDBJ, I know you are very strong in your belief about this teaching, but what I said in my post was, "Angels definitely are created beings, and are part of the universe that God created" Then, I said that God said all was good, "very good" at the end of His creation process. Hoth was kind enough to list the verses for us, or six of them anyway. God said that He saw that it was good once each day for the six days, and then He said it again, in the end for the seventh time. (I just like that number 7) So this is the reason that I said there was no evil angels prior to Gen 1:31. God said at that point that everything was good. I do not doubt that there were angels. But my understanding of the Bible says that at the end of Gen 1, Everything God had created was all good. That makes it quite clear that the Lucifer's flood theory is nothing more than another heretical teaching. I will ask you to stop undermining the Word of God on this Forum. |
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4 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221719 | ||
Thanks doc, for clearing that up. Call me cynical, but it is I who am somewhat critical against scientists. Philosophers, geologists, etc. I have had times when they have been like thorns in my side so I think they are overrated as a profession. I hold no grudge against any personally, of course. There is just too much garbage being taught as fact in schools and in media such as PBS that it has left a bad taste in my mouth. My apologies to the profession, keliy |
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5 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221714 | ||
The publication "Creation, Chaos, and Restoration" should be looked at with a great deal of discretion, because I have found this teaching of the 'Gap' theory to undermine the Word of God.. Angels definitely are created beings, and are part of the universe that God created. Ezra tells us, "You are the Lord, you alone; you have made heaven, the heaven of heaven, with all their host.....and the host of heaven worships you." (Neh 9:6; cf Psa148:2,5). Paul includes the angels among that which was created through Christ and for him: Visible and invisible whether thrones or dominions or principalities and authorities (Col 1:16) But the GAP theory teaches that the angels were upon earth prior to the human race, and left behind a damaged environment which needed to be restored. This is reading into scripture ideas of man that deny the accuracy of, or are simply not supported in God's Word. Such as Gen 1:31 when God saw everything He had made, and said it was very good. What this means is that even the angelic world that had been created did not have evil angels or demons in it at that time. Therefore sometime between the events of Gen 1:31 and 3:1 there must have been a type of rebellion with angels that turned against God and became evil. Then came Eve's deception in the Garden, through the serpent who was undermining God's Word, as he said. "hath God really said....?" Please do not fall into the clutches of this same deceptive practice which can only come from the enemy. In Him, keliy |
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6 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221709 | ||
Thank you Doc, for a fine response to this puzzle. I think you and Calvin are on the right track, since none of us would rationally attempt to work a mixture of truth and error into our theories, at least without attempting to conceal our own errors. So, philisophical discussions do not fit well on this forum since there are many who still prefer their own suppositions above the truth of God. Blessings to you on this Lord's day, keliy |
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7 | asking a non-member to leave the church, | NT general | keliy | 221708 | ||
Hi tonkinj, The pastor of this church refers to some good verses for direction. In 2 Corinthians 5, the apostle Paul rightly directs the church to avoid having any conversation with Christians who were guilty of continually practicing wickedness, for there were some who were doing this flagrantly, and word of it had spread across the countryside. But your post mentioned that the relationship was platonic, as a renter would have with a friend. So I am not sure how that preaching would come into play. It seems as if the saved friend had repented. And if so, there are other ways to look at this. Such as Jesus had said to the adulterous woman, "neither do I condemn you, go, and sin no more" The passage in 2 Cor 5 was no accident however, since it is reinforced in Eph 5:3-12, as Paul urges that church, (Here, in part,) "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you,.....For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God..." I recommend to you to read the entire chapter 5 of Ephesians. So, while this forum is not the place to offer advice, we are all here to help you find answers in God's Word, and from there you may draw your own conclusion. We abide by the directions to: Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2Tim 2:15 Best of blessings to you as you prayerfully seek your answer. keliy |
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8 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221706 | ||
Hi Hoth, Very good post, I commend you for the time and effort you put into this. Ya know, when I said our human mind had a defect, I did not mean that God made a mistake. -Of course our minds are not perfect, but you get the drift. I am not going to continue to bring you Scripture verses on this because your understanding is much deeper than mine on this subject. But hey, you asked so I offered my understanding. If you say that it is clear that our planet existed prior to the first day, then you can go with that without any rebuttal from me. But, like I said, since you asked,... |
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9 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221683 | ||
Good Morning CDBJ, Thank you for responding, the verses you mention are very good, and I heartily agree that "there are numerous translations that have a tendency to mislead the intended meaning". Now could you please explain how this points to the belief that: "This pristine earth, originally occupied by the angels, became a chaotic ruin following Satan’s revolt against God." I can find nothing in Scripture that even comes close. I ask you to please adhere strictly to God's Word, and throw out all of man's eisegetics. Thank you for your time and efforts as we explore God's Word together, keliy eis·e·ge·sis –noun,plural- an interpretation, esp. of Scripture, that expresses the interpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning of the text. From Dictionary.com: |
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10 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221678 | ||
Hello, CDBJ. Thank you for your input. I looked at the site you mentioned and decided it was very interesting. This site talks about the infallable Word of God, and then continues in theories that undermine the same. I was just wondering if there were any verses in Scripture that could convince me that the opinions stated on the site are not contrary to God's Word, or the generally accepted beliefs that are held for Genesis 1:1 and 1:2? Specifically, this (from the link) is the statement I am referring to: This pristine earth, originally occupied by the angels, became a chaotic ruin following Satan’s revolt against God. In grace God restored the planet in six days for human habitation. He decreed that man would resolve the prehistoric angelic conflict through volition. (Truth, or Heresy?) |
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11 | did angels occupy the earth before Adam? | Genesis | keliy | 221675 | ||
Hi Doc, Thank you for responding to my query, your answer fit perfectly to what I was looking for. And I had never heard of the Ruin-Reconstruction view before. So I will look into it more. You made the point very clear, however, that it comes from an "erroneous exegesis of Genesis". Blessings, keliy |
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12 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221659 | ||
Now, to continue with my post, I must say, "If I had more time I could have made this shorter" Part 2: When Adam's sin brought death into the world: Yes. That would include vegetation and animals as well. Death is death, and there is no death in paradise, because that would mean suffering a loss. Please see Rev 21:4, "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." You ask me for Scripture to support answers to your questions, but this is all I can do for now. God does not always give what we want, but He gives us all we need. You say that it appears to you that life may have existed prior to the first day but can you support that? I do not believe there is a parallel to this statement in Scripture The Bible does support itself, It says "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Now, in order for there to be life before the first day, would there not have to be a contradiction in there somewhere? Looking closely, there is not a gap, but there is a division. If you read verses 3-5 closely, you can see that light was created on the first day. Then, looking back, verses 1 and 2 give us a sort of prelude to the story of creation, and prepares us for the important matter that follows. Just as chapter 2 is not another story of creation, but it is an appendix to the story that begins in chapter 1, and explains in greater detail the part of history which relates to mankind. God Bless you Hoth, I hope that things can get clearer in your mind. I know that mine is often foggy but at that point I do not depend on my physical sense and just trust God to be true to His Word. keliy |
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13 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221658 | ||
Hi Hoth Thank you for your reply to my answer. You bring up some very good points and it is a pleasure to discuss them w/you, and it is good that you do not doubt the validity of God’s Word. It is very important to pray for wisdom and guidance when we read the Bible, for to many, the wisdom is hidden and they make presumptuous interpretations. The scriptural reference for this statement is 1Cor 1:18: "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." And I myself have found many apparent contradictions that are found out through further study to be truth. But I will not dwell on that for now. You wrote,"However, when I read what appears to be a contradiction in the Bible I realize that I am making a wrong interpretation" First off, you state your belief as "the beginning" being the start of eternity. Again, I think this is just a drawback to the frailty of the human mind. It is a defect, but I believe God has reasons for installing it. Our mind wants to quantify the state of eternity in order to comprehend it. Yet, eternity exists outside of time, so it cannot have a beginning. God exists in eternity past, and in eternity future. If there was a beginning to eternity past, then what was before that? If there is a beginning, then there should be an end to eternity, right? And what happens after eternity? If eternity has a beginning and end, does it also have an age? If we remove the parameters of time out of the equation, it is much simpler to imagine. You also wrote, "Since the planet earth and the universe existed prior to the light of verse 3, they also existed prior to the first day. My feeling is that this is misinterpretation on your part, since the sea, the earth, and its fruits were created on the third day (v. 9–13) Though you understand that God would have had to create paths of light, millions of light years long, in order to have the stars as far as they are and yet be visible to us, well then, why would you question the light that came into being when God spoke, "Light, Be!" Would this light not be independant of the sun and stars ? Please see Rev 21:23, "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof." also Rev 22:5, "And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever." And this is similar to eternity being independant of time, it will exist beyond time. And this is similar to our spirit being independant of our flesh, we will exist beyond our flesh. Now I must apologize for being so lengthy, I have exceeded the max number of characters and will continue in next post, til then, (o: |
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14 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221616 | ||
Hi Hoth. Thank you for being direct in your question. No, God did not create the earth OR the universe before the first day. This is my solid belief and I will attempt to show you solid proof. Scripture says in Genesis 1:1 that God created the heavens and the earth. Verse 2 describes the creation: The earth was formless and void, etc. Verse 3: Then God said, let there be light, and light was. There is obviously no gap between verse 1 and verse 2, correct? I do not see anything here that resembles a gap between verse 2 and verse 3. Let us simply look at the Gospel of John for a few verses. John 1:1 gives us this information about the beginning: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God and verses 14 explains: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Now going back to verse 3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Well, this is just me, but when God "said" did He not speak the Word of God? and did He not create all things through Jesus? God had a plan, and He knows the end from the beginning. Would anyone actually think that the earth is older than the sun by a thousand days or a thousand years? I am just posing these as questions so that you can answer them for yourself. To show the magnitude of His power God's creation on the third day was : the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good. And then, on the fourth day was : And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also. So, God made fruit trees before He made the sun. There was light before he made the sources of light that we see today. Let me ask you this, If God made Adam as a full grown adult, could He not also make the earth as a full grown earth? Next question is, If death did not enter the world until Adam sinned, then where did all the fossils come from that are supposedly millions of years old? The answer is that fossils come from a cataclysmic event. -Such as a worldwide flood Next question is If we are able to doubt God's Word in Genesis, how then are we able to believe His Word in the rest of the entire Bible? |
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15 | In the beginning | Gen 1:1 | keliy | 221589 | ||
Hi Hoth, Thank you for clarifying, as I said, it can be confusing. And no, I am not saying that God created the heavens and the earth prior to the first day, though it may seem so. I think the confusion arises from how we are defining the "Beginning". Merriam-Webster gives more than one definition to this word. One of them is referring to the point at which something begins (starts). Another definition is describing an early period (such as an era). This could be construed as an interval of time from when there was nothing in existance, through to the end of the creation of man in the garden. I am not trying to enforce a particular idea here, just shedding some light . Our human mind must put things into some type of quantity that can be grasped. So in order to separate the distance between two points, we must put a measurable quantity to that distance. These can be called spacetime intervals: There is a difference in spatial location which is able to be measured in lengths, and a difference in temporal events is measured in spans of time. In Physics a spacetime continuum is mathematically defined as a four-dimensional entity which includes length, width, height, and time. Since God exists outside of the spacetime continuum, it is difficult to place Him within the parameters of our human reasoning. And, while it may 'seem' that time has always been, actually, God existed before time began without us, and will continue to exist after time ends, with us in His glorious presence. I hope this answer helps and I hope I did not further confuse the issue, if there is anything more I can do, please ask. keliy |
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16 | Jewish law during the millenium | Bible general Archive 4 | keliy | 221366 | ||
Hi lighted steps, thank you for your comment, now I am totally in agreement with Beja. (o: I am glad there were others that got uplifted from our lively discourse. As I said earlier to Meta, My belief is that we are unable to pin the answer down, and come into full agreement, because neither one of us is right. The answer likely lies somewhere in between, or possibly outside of the box. We will know the answer soon enough, when we discover it in glory. Our Lord's thoughts are just that much higher than ours. confer Isa 55:9 Lord Bless, keliy |
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17 | Jewish law during the millenium | Bible general Archive 4 | keliy | 221362 | ||
Dear Beja, Thank you, no apologies are necessary whatsoever. It is very hard to come to agreement on a Forum such as this, and not talking face to face. As I said earlier, this should not be a devisive issue, so I do not wish to just go separate ways on this, but remain as christian participants in an ongoing discussion that has not been concluded as of yet. It is best to agree to disagree for now and let the Spirit work in us as our Lord sees fit. I feel bad if I took up too much of your time, most pastors have this day off. I know, God's work is never done, but as humans allof us need a balance. So lets leave the subject open for discussion in another thread. Agreed ? Lord Bless keliy |
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18 | Jewish law during the millenium | Bible general Archive 4 | keliy | 221360 | ||
Hello Beja, Very interesting, thank you for your answers, and your responses. Sorry, I must admit I did not receive a lot of clarification. When you say that you, "can't respond as to what other verses you mean when you haven't told me which ones.", Well, I guess I did quote the verses, but did not tag them with a reference. My fault. The scriptural references are, 1Pet 5:8 and Matt 24:24, and the gist was, that satan is in the world, and he is deceiving Christians. Now I would like to address your post: I see it increasingly interesting that when you decide whether the passage is to be interpreted literally or not, that (quoting you), " have a choice. I can say to all these passages in scripture from a variety of genres, "No No, none of you can be understood literally and we must add at least a 2000 year gap in you." Or I can say to one single passage in revelation, which is a book absolutely full of things meant to be taken in a symbolic way, "This one is the one passage not to take literally." To me I take scripture as a whole far far more literally by taking the amillenial position." The interesting point, is that the one passage that is the deciding passage concerning the 1000 year reign, (Rev 20:1-3) is the one that you choose to take symbolically and say that it has been going on for 2000 yrs and is still going. I see it as quite literal from the passage that satan IS bound in a sealed 'abyss' (elsewhere translated as 'bottomless pit") and this is literally explained as: 'so he cannot deceive the nations'. But you say he still has access and he is presently deceiving people that are in the nations. And you say that you are taking the passage literally? This I see as a definition of the difference between exegesis and eisegesis I see the seal placed over satan as being much more effective than the seal on Jesus in Joseph's tomb, but hey, that is just me and my presuppositions. You imply that this seal is as effective as a screen door, because satan still is working among us in the duration of the 1000 yr reign. I appreciate your view, and although I might seem skeptical of it, I will try to remain open and remember this thread during future discourses. I will stay with my reading of Scripture, at least for now. When it says that satan is 'prowling about' that does not say to me that he is doing this from a sealed pit. I will try to remain sober and vigilant because of him (1Pet 5:8) as I do further studies to try to understand more thoroughly. Blessings to you and yours in Christ, keliy |
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19 | Jewish law during the millenium | Bible general Archive 4 | keliy | 221352 | ||
Thank you, Meta, I just want to say that I did not take your post personally, but this post delighted me nonetheless. (is the post afterward called the "metapost"?) Blessings to you and yours, keliy |
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20 | Jewish law during the millenium | Bible general Archive 4 | keliy | 221351 | ||
Thank you, pastor Beja. I have always enjoyed your posts, but for some reason they just never sat well in my mind and I continue to strain to find out why. Sorry, I am trying to learn, and having been to many classes on Revelation, things are becoming as clear as mud. Many times I see people site the Book of Revelations, and I just cringe. Because if they do not even have the Title correct, how can they understand the obscure message of it.? Revelation is a Singular Revelation, not plural. And it is what the name implies, a Revealing, -not a covering-up. I believe that the key to understanding the Book of Revelation is to understand the rest of the Bible. When you say that satan is unable to deceive the nations, (Gk, ethnos), I do not think this word is meant to be understood as 'governments' or 'territories', but as 'peoples' -such as in multitudes. How then can the devil be waliking about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, if He is unable to deceive us? How can satan attempt to deceive the very elect, if possible? These are New Testament teachings and since you have already told me when the end of the 1000 is to come, can I ask you to tell me when the beginning of the 1000 started? Because I think the amill view is that it started at the Cross, which would force me to discount some verses. Are those verses also symbolic? I am taking the literal sense here, and forgive me if I am wrong, but Rev 20:3 (KJV) states, "And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. I think satan IS put somewhere that he can be sealed. To take this symbolically means we are opening up God's Word to the point where the final message of God would be called, "The Book of Interpretations" -plural, not singular Lord Bless you and yours, keliy |
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