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Results from: Notes Author: McGracer Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is the Law abolished or not? | Eph 2:15 | McGracer | 57842 | ||
Dear Johnny, Thanks for your response. I do believe that He did fulfill the Law despite the things He did that seemed to go against how the Pharisees defined keeping the Law. The Law reflects the moral character of God and Christ, being God, could not have broken it. You wrote: Jesus Christ gave us the two commandments to love God with all thy heart, soul, strenght and love our nieghboors as thyself! if we observe this two commandments there is no single teaching of law we are going to disobey. I agree. If we observe these two commandments, we will keep the Law. The problem lies with the fact (I believe) that we can NEVER completely observe them. I have been a Christian for 30 years and I honestly admit that I have NEVER been able to love God with ALL of my heart, soul, and mind or to love my neighbor as completely as I do myself. Sure, I try. I make some progress in some areas. But the fact is that I have NEVER been able to do it PERFECTLY - 24/7. So why would God give the Law or Jesus issue to more "impossible" commands that He knows that we cannot keep? If I lived a perfectly moral life (which I admit I can't) and sinned only ONE time before I died, according to James 2:10, I would be guilty of breaking the WHOLE Law and I would die and go to hell. So why would God keep us under the Mosaic Law or the two new commandments if He knows that 1) we cannot keep them and 2) the wages of sin is death? I agree with your last statement: "So if we follow the example of Christ of observing the commandments we are not abolishing the law but fulfilling it with a deep meaning." I just find that I cannot consistently do it. McGracer |
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2 | Is the Law abolished or not? | Eph 2:15 | McGracer | 57795 | ||
Dear Ray, Thanks for your answer(s). The sermon on the mount sure did make it more difficult. The Law said "Don't commit adultery." Jesus said "Don't even lust." The Law said, "Don't kill." Jesus said, "Don't even hate." The New Testament commands bury me even quicker than the Law does. "Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Love your neighbor as yourself" "Be as perfect as your heavenly Father." Who can possibly keep these commands 24-7? We can try, but does trying cut it? I don't see anywhere where Jesus said, "Try! God will accept your best effort." He commanded, "Do! The Father demands perfection." James says something similar in James 2:10. I like what you said about seeking HIS righteousness instead of our own. An interesting challenge indeed. Thanks. McGracer |
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3 | Is it by works or by grace? | Luke 11:8 | McGracer | 57782 | ||
Dear Kango, Thanks for your answer. You bring up a good point about praying according to His will. In fact, Rom 8:27 seems to say that the Holy Spirit does this very thing. But do you have any thoughts as to why we would need to continue to pray for things if, according to 2 Pet 1:3, the Holy Spirit in us is already everything that we NEED for life and godliness? Thanks. McGracer |
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4 | Is the Law abolished or not? | Eph 2:15 | McGracer | 57776 | ||
Dear kalos, I do have my own thoughts and ideas on how these two verses might reconcile, but the point of my asking a question to the forum is not so that I can answer it. :) If I want to know ONLY what I think about a question, it would be a waste of time for me to post a question. Do you have an answer to this question, kalos, or is it your policy to tell posters to answer their own questions? McGracer |
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5 | Is the Law abolished or not? | Eph 2:15 | McGracer | 57751 | ||
Packer, Okay, I think I understand your answer better now. Thanks. McGracer |
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6 | Is the Law abolished or not? | Eph 2:15 | McGracer | 57742 | ||
Packer, I am thankful that we are no longer under the curse of the Law. There is no condemnation for those in Christ. But I would like to know if these two scriptures contradict each other. One says that Christ came to fulfill the Law, the other says that He abolished it at His crucifixion. Are these in conflict? McGracer |
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7 | Is the Law abolished or not? | Eph 2:15 | McGracer | 57738 | ||
Packer, Are you saying that He first fulfilled it and then abolished it? I.e. that His life fulfilled it but that His death abolished it? Could you clarify your post, please? These two scriptures do seem to contradict each other and I'd like to find out how other believers have reconciled them. Sincerely, McGracer |
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8 | image of God | Gen 1:26 | McGracer | 54607 | ||
Hi Searcher, Thanks for this research, bro. There is much false doctrine that abounds and TV seems to be the main medium of choice for it. I just wanted to clarify my previous post that, while I do believe that man is primarily a spirit being with soul and body, he is not created as pure spirit. God is pure Spirit. And despite all the garbage that these so-called men of God proliferate, He does not have a physical body. Christ took on one and still inhabits some form of supernatural, physical body but God, in essence, is Spirit. But man was never created as pure spirit. God created him as spirit,soul, and body and he will always be thus. Nor is he equal to God. He never was and never will be. I do not see God, in the act of creation trying to reproduce Himself. I see Him creating a subordinate creature called human that He can express Himself through, but equality with God is never man's option. The angels are also spirit beings. They seem to be able to take on physical form but it does not appear (no pun intended) that they are physical in nature. Man, on the other hand, has a physical dimension and always will. Anyone who teaches anything different in this respect is obviously a false teacher. My explanation simply refers to the functionality of man in that, through his spirit, he is designed to worship and fellowship with God. He is a unified whole. To deny his physicality is to side with Gnosticism and deny the reality of the created universe. To accentuate man's soul over his physical and spiritual components, elevates humanism to an unwarranted position of false authority and relativistic thinking. And to deny his spiritual nature is to relegate man to the status of an animal with superior intellect, hence evolution. To seek spiritual reality apart from God will lead to demonic posession or opression. Spiritual truth must come from God and His Word. We must have a proper balance of man that comes from the biblical view. One of the most obvious scriptures is 1 Thess 5:23 where Paul states the correct order of functionality - spirit, soul, and body. To deny any of these components diminishes man to less than what our Creator has intended. To put soul and body above spiritual truth becomes "flesh". The Creator and the created can be one through union in Christ but never are one is essence. We are joined to Him but we are not Him. Hope this helps. McGracer |
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9 | image of God | Gen 1:26 | McGracer | 54593 | ||
Hi Searcher, Sorry bro but I didn't understand your post. What I posted was my view on what I believe the image of God constitutes: a human spirit being (with body and soul) that is capable of directly worshipping and fellowshipping with God. When Adam spiritually died, he lost that direct capability. Adam passed on this fallen likeness to his son also and to the rest of us. While word study does show that animals may also have a spirit and soul, they cannot communicate or fellowship with God (as far as we know). Lastly, bro, I don't buy into Kenneth Copeland's theology. He has some very erroneous beliefs concerning the deity of Christ, what happened to Jesus on the cross, and who we are as Christians. So I have no interest in what he might have to say on this subject. Your bro in Christ, McGracer |
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10 | Can we become more righteous in state? | Rom 8:34 | McGracer | 54266 | ||
Joe, Again, I agree. We become more like Christ in our thoughts, attitudes, and actions. This is the realm of the soul (mind, emotions, and will). Most certainly there is sanctification going on there. My point, in case you haven't caught it, is that there is a distinction between soul and spirit and, while Christ indwells my spirit and is joined to it, my soul still has a long way to go. And this body will never get there (I have a new one waiting for me). Well, you probably don't agree with all this Christian psychology stuff but it has been an interesting conversation with you, bro. I'll drop this subject as others feel I've said too much already. Maybe we'll "tangle" again later. Be blessed, bro. Grace and peace to you. McGracer |
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11 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54264 | ||
Joe, I agree that "all these things come from God." I hope that I have never insinuated anything less. I am what I am solely by God's grace alone. Nevertheless, there is a sense in which we partake and share, as you have said here, in Christ's Spirit. If all these wonderful blessings remain in the person of Christ alone, they will not benefit us one iota. This is one of the primary reasons He comes to indwell us - He wants union with His new creations. Well, I have shared on this subject enough, bro. Kalos is accusing me of arguing and wrangling over words so I'll drop it. :) Thanks for your challenging (and kind) interaction, bro. Talk to you later. McGracer |
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12 | More Righteousness? | Rom 8:34 | McGracer | 54263 | ||
Joe, This is EXACTLY what I have been trying to say. At new birth, we receive a new, righteous spirit that is joined forever to Christ's spirit in us - 1 Cor 6:17. It is our new divine nature indwelt by God Himself - 2 Pet 1:4. This is who we ARE. If the body, at any time, dies, we go immediately into our Lord's presence because of who we ARE and Christ already in us. Scripture says that our new self (the inner man)which we put on (once in the Greek) is ALREADY created in the likeness of God, righteous and holy - Eph 4:24. This is internal Christ-likeness of which we are already participants and where we simply ARE. In the meantime, as you have correctly stated, the Spirit is transforming the rest of us (thoughts and behavior, a term that the Bible calls "soul") into Christ-likeness. This is external Christ-likeness were we grow and mature. McGracer |
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13 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54260 | ||
I sensed this was coming. So typical. | ||||||
14 | Can we become more righteous in state? | Rom 8:34 | McGracer | 54259 | ||
Joe, You just said that we couldn't lose our state of righteousness before God. Then how does the Holy Spirit make you more righteous? McGracer |
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15 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54257 | ||
Joe, I agree with you, declaring us righteous IS NOT pretending. That is exactly my point, bro. My record (and yours) says, because of what Christ has done, RIGHTEOUS. My record used to say SINFUL - GUILTY. That was given to Christ and His righteous was given to me. So my record now has big, bold, letters that say RIGHTEOUS. I am forever thankful for that. You wrote: "I have demonstrated the biblical support of my position, and responded to every verse you have brought up." You did not address 2 Pet 1:4 that I recall. It says that we are partakers of the divine nature. You have admitted that you have a new nature in Christ (which, in all reality, is not part of justification). Is this new nature righteous in constitution? If it is divine (coming from God), then wouldn't it be so? You wrote: "Why is it so important that you see yourself as already arrived at righteousness, no matter how much real-life and biblical evidence is presented to the contrary?" I am not 100 percent righteous, Joe. I still have flesh with indwelling sin, just like you. But, as being born in Adam imparts a sinful nature to us, being born in Christ imparts a righteous nature to us. Lastly, "real-life" is not the standard of truth. God's Word is. And they is certainly biblical evidence to support that we are partakers of a new divine and righteous nature. My spirit is alive because of righteousness - Rom 8:10. In fact, according to Eph 4:24, my new self, which I obtained at new birth, was created (past tense) in righteousness and holiness. This does not come from me or my efforts, it comes from God on the basis of faith - Phil 3:9. So why is it so important that I see myself as having a righteousness (that did not come from me but is now attributed to me in Christ) that I can count on? Simply, because it is true. My new nature is righteous. My actions and thoughts are not always so. We live what we truly believe. As long as we believe that we are just sinners and unrighteous, that is how we will live. When we come to see yourself as God does - righteous, holy, joined to Christ, saints - then we will start living up to what we really are. It's that simple. Unfortunately, it's not "acceptable" by much of the Christian community that believes that the only difference between the Christian and the sinner is that the Christian is forgiven. Christ came that He might be our life - Col 3:4. He is not going to indwell an unrighteous person. So He much make that person righteous in order to live there. It is interesting that the average Christian believes that Christ comes to live in them, but they think that He joins Himself to an unrighteous creature. God never dwells where there is sin - Psalm 5:4. You have stated that you are not yet righteous. Yet you believe that Christ is in you. How can this be? McGracer |
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16 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54248 | ||
Joe, You wrote: "All other things being equal, I walk out of the courtroom identical in nature to the way I was when I went in." You entered the courtroom guilty of offense. You have stated the you leave the courtroom not changed. But then you state that you are no longer guilty. Do you see the contradiction here? Are you, in nature, guilty or not if the judge declares you not guilty and gives you the righteousness of another? You wrote: "As far as the judge is concerned, looking at the whole situation, I am not considered unrighteous." Does this mean then, that as far as the judge is concerned, you are righteous? McGracer |
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17 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54245 | ||
Please see my primary question concerning "declared" righteousness. The Holman Christian Standard Bible takes the liberty of defining the term for itself, much like the NIV defines "sarx" as sinful nature (although "sinful" nor "nature" is not in the greek whatsoever). Non-literal translations do this so that they can put forth there own "theology". For instance, if I decide that justification means "to pretend that someone is righteous", I can then translate like so: Ro 3:26 He presented Him to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be righteous and pretend that the one who has faith in Jesus is righteous also. Ro 5:1 Therefore, since God is pretending that we are righteous, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Ro 5:9 Much more then, since we are pretending to be righteous by His blood, we will be saved through Him from wrath. And this is exactly what theologians mean when they say that we are declared righteous. They say that God says it is so, but it isn't so. Isn't His Word truth? McGracer |
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18 | Are the declared righteous righteous? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54239 | ||
Joe, So then, although the judge has declared you not guilty, then you still are? And though the judge gave you someone else's righteousness, you are still unrighteous before the judge? ---------- Rom 4:5, let's talk about credited first. What does credited mean? In other words, if I credit your bank account with 1000 dollars, is that now your 1000 dollars to spend or is it still my 1000 dollars? McGracer |
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19 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54222 | ||
Joe, I guess the difference comes down to our views of justification and sanctification. You seem to believe that God has declared you righteous (though you, as a person - your identity - are not so) and that you are now becoming more so through the process of sanctification. So you seem to feel that justification opens the door for God to now sanctify you and gradually make you, as a person, more righteous. I believe that God has already made me, through my union with Him, a righteous person. My new nature is a righteous one. I don't view justification as simply God pretending that I as righteous so that He can make me more righteous. I view Him declaring me righteous because He has made me, as a person, already righteous. My sanctification is a process whereby God manifest through my thoughts and actions what is already true of me as a person. I am not changing my thoughts and actions to become something that I am not. My thoughts (renewing my mind to the true of His Word) and my actions (submitting myself as a living sacrifice and allowing God to live through me) are a RESULT of what He has ALREADY done at the deepest part of me. I am not being sanctified to attain that which I do not already have. I am being sanctified outwardly BECAUSE, at the core of who I am, Christ is there and has ALREADY sanctified me inwardly. Thanks for your interaction, Joe. It's obvious that we agree as to the end result, that Christ be glorified in us and that we be made righteous, sanctified, and holy. The difference is that you feel this will be gradually accomplished down here and consumated at the death of your body. I believe that it is already finished in God's realm (heaven), that I get to experience that down here, and that my righteousness, sanctification, and holiness were consumated at the cross and resurrection of His body, not my own. Grace and peace to you, bro. May you grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord. McGracer |
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20 | What is perfected for all time? | Matt 7:24 | McGracer | 54209 | ||
Joe, I agree, the OT saints were credited righteousness because Christ's sacrifice had not yet been completed. But you didn't answer my question. Where does the NT say that the NT believer is DECLARED righteous? I agree that OT saints were CREDITED righteousness because the payment for sin had not yet been fully made. But it was at the cross, what it not? So the NT believer is MADE righteous - Rom 5:17,19; Rom 8;10; 2 Cor 5:21; Eph 4:24; Phil 3:9. None of these verses mention DECLARE, do they? Where does the NT say that we, who are indwelt by the living Jesus Christ are DECLARED anything? You wrote: "This is why classical Protestantism holds to a doctrine of "imputed" righteousness rather than the Roman Catholic doctrine of "infused" or "inherent" righteousness. While Protestants hold that we are regenerated (born again with a new nature), there is no passage in the New Testament that insists that we are already righteous in our own right, meaning that now apart from Christ we are able to stand before the infinitely holy God of the universe on our own." Joe, you misunderstand what I am saying. I have never said that we are righteous solely in our own right or apart from Christ. NEVER! Quite to the contrary, I am saying that we are righteous BECAUSE of our union with Him, not apart from Him. We are no longer apart from Him and, indeed, never can be. So I agree that I have NO righteousness of my own apart from His that has been given to me. But the fact remains that His righteousness is now mine, this is NT justification. God declares what is so. It is finished! You have stated that you believe that you have a new nature. Is that new nature righteous? 2 Pet 1:4 says that we are partakers of the divine nature. Again, is that nature righteous? If so, then isn't that part of you righteous? We need an intercessor because we still have an accusor, don't we? You wrote: "Not only are we credited with the perfect righteousness of Christ, but also Christ on the Cross was "credited" with every single last sin of His people." This is not what the Bible says, bro. 2 Cor 5:21 says "He MADE Him (not credited Him) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." MADE, Joe, not credited. I don't understand how it happened. But it is what God says and I believe it. I don't understand the Trinity but even though that particular word is NOT used in the Bible, I believe it. So if God says MADE, then, guess what? it is MADE. I believe that the apostle Peter gives us a clue to how God did this in 1 Peter 2:24: "and He Himself bore our sins in His BODY (not in His spirit or in his nature) on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed." Have we died to sin? Most assuredly. Do we live to righteousness? Most assuredly. Romans 6:2,7,11,17,18,22. 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. You wrote: "If God already sees us as righteous on our own, such activities on Jesus' part become unnecessary." Again, Joe, you accuse me falsely. I never said that we are righteous on our own. We are righteous because we are joined to Him. Period. I cannot make it any clearer than that. We are righteous solely because of Christ and His finished work. Wouldn't you agree? Or are you seeking your righteousness apart from Him? McGracer |
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