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Results from: Notes Author: BibleStudent74 Ordered by Date |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88761 | ||
Dear Tim, Just so that I'm clear on what your saying. Your saying that when Matthew writes Matthew 27:9 "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;" he really means Jeremiah even though he is directly quoting Zechariah? It seems that your saying he was talking about buying the field with 17 PIECES OF SILVER because God was going to have Israel set free again. That's what your references are referring to. If that were the case, then why would Matthew himself make a connection with Judas selling Jesus out for thirty pieces of silver and saying (I'm paraphrasing) "and when this happened, this was the fullfilment of the prophecy found in Jeremiah that says "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;"? This doesn't add up. I need to blur my vision in order to see it that way. Let's try to come to an agreement on both our parts. Fact#1 Matthew says to look in the book of Jeremiah for this quote. "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;" Fact#2 You look for that quote in the book of Jeremiah and you NEVER find it. Fact#3 If you look in every book in the old testament for that quote, you ONLY find it in the book of Zechariah. Specifically Zechariah 11:12 Am I making this up or can we agree on these three facts? Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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2 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88699 | ||
Dear Tim, ::sniff::sniff:: I smell a copout ;-) j.k. Well, if you want to go by tradition, then it is also a well known fact of Jewish tradition that they held that Moses was "ressurected" a few days after he died,( I think it was three) hence the Jewish New Testament writer Jude talking about Moses and the devil contending over that ressurection. I used this text before to prove that Moses wasn't dead remember? Do you still want to use a well known practice among 1st Century Jews to explain something that to a bible student like you or myself can clearly see is an error? You can't string together a Messianic prophecy with something completely unrelated. I feel as if now you are having a hard time accepting this because it is new to you. (or have I presumed too much?) Like I said Tim, I was just as shocked to learn this fact. All throughout bible history, God has used men to spread his word. Because everything that is human is imperfect we must accept the idea of imperfections and mistakes in the bible. This doesn't change the message! Nor should it bring about any controversy. I believe there are many things that were verbally inspired in the bible like the ten commandments for example but the vessel in which the message was carried is imperfect. God chose imperfect man with his imperfect language to spread his message, not perfect angels. They used the vernacular and examples or sayings of the times that don't make sense today. Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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3 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88649 | ||
Dear Tim, You wrote: "The illustration you cite from Mt. 27:9 doesn't justify throwing out the words of the Bible. The quote in Mt. 27:9 seems to be primarily from Zechariah, but it also seems to be from Jeremiah as well (Jer. 19:1-13 and 32:6-9). Matthew may have only mentioned Jeremiah because he was a major prophet." I respectfully disagree. Matthew has clearly made a mistake. Now forgive my ignorance (and I feel foolish asking) but what do the verses you quoted have anything even remotely to do with the prophecy that Matthew quotes regarding Jesus being sold for 30 pieces of silver? Matthew is clearly quoting Zechariah 11:12. I don't have a problem with this though. It's what scholars call a "lapsus linguae" (slip of the tongue). I'm not saying that I would throw out the bible because of the errors found in it. It is still the inspired word of God. I recognize that it was man that wrote it, but for it to be in such harmony throughout the years is something I believe must be supernatural. Only God could have inspired these men to write and not have it contradict what he has told other prophets. I bring up the example of Matthew because here is a clear example of what is written being in error with what is true. Jer. 19:1-13 and 32:6-9 both have nothing to do with Messianic prophecy much less, prophecy of Jesus being sold for thirty pieces of silver. I believe the heart of the matter between me having a problem with consciousness in death and you believing in consciousness after death lies with your belief of "verbal inspiration". Which is how we come to this discussion. You also wrote: "However, to turn Mt. 27:9 into an error because they used a different method of citing sources than we do today would be an error on our part. I could see your point if Jeremiah had nothing to do with the quote, but he does." Please enlighten me as to how Jeremiah has something to do with the quote please. Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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4 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88589 | ||
Dear Tim, I understand where you're coming from. The reason why I have continued thus far is because I used to think like you did. The text says this, the text says that. If we were to continue in that way of thinking, we would have a great problem with Matthew 27:9 "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;". We all know that it wasn't Jeremiah that said it but Zechariah 11:12 "And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver." You can't call the entire bible false because of a slip of the tongue that Matthew had. He was thinking Jeremiah but it was Zechariah that said it. Do we then throw out the bible because of the human errors that are found in it? No, we seek the truth in what the message is. God wants us to think. Remember why he asked Adam "Where are you"! It wasn't that he didn't know where Adam was but he wanted Adam to think about what he was doing. 2 Peter 1:21 "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were MOVED by the Holy Ghost." (emphasis added) The men were inspired to write, not told what to write. I am merely doing what was commanded of me in. 1 Thessalonians 5:21 "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." As I stated before: It could not have been Samuel who was raised up because it was a witch that did it. You cannot say that there is consciousness in death simply because you saw it once in scripture. I believe the reason why you are spending alot of time defending what you believe is because you might be wrong. There is only one truth. For us to find that truth, we must measure the verses with the whole bible. I am not one to be rude and I don't wish to make others feel uncomfortable. If you wish this thread to end then I will move on. If you wish to help me "See the light" then consider what I have said. Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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5 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88534 | ||
It wasn't an attempt. They are very well connected. Saul had obeyed the commandment of God in putting away the witches. That's why they were in hiding. Is that speculation? I thought it was clear in this verse 1 Sam 28:11 " Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel." It would be speculation to say that it was someone else. She specified "Who should I bring up" (READ:I will excercise my devilish practice for your pleasure) Do you see then why I say it couldn't have been Samuel? Your thoughts Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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6 | Are those drawn 2 Christ raised to life? | Rev 13:8 | BibleStudent74 | 88485 | ||
Greetings Tim, I see you have another debate going on, I'm wondering if you forgot about me or if I have offended you? It's regarding my last post to which I have not received a response yet. Here it is again: ------------------------------------------------ Subject: Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? Note: the response to this post, Note: Greetings Tim, I'm reposting my second paragraph because it seems that you have overlooked this. This is not speculation. No, it does not explicitly say that it was a demon. Nor does it say explicitly that God raised him up either, but knowing the God that I serve, he would not contradict himself. If he said in Exo 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." WHERE is the pattern of proof that God would work and listen to any witch (namely the witch of Endor) in raising Samuel (a known prophet of the true God) up? Your Brother in Christ, Phil |
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7 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 87574 | ||
the response to this post, Note: Greetings Tim, I'm reposting my second paragraph because it seems that you have overlooked this. This is not speculation. No, it does not explicitly say that it was a demon. Nor does it say explicitly that God raised him up either, but knowing the God that I serve, he would not contradict himself. If he said in Exo 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." WHERE is the pattern of proof that God would work and listen to any witch (namely the witch of Endor) in raising Samuel (a known prophet of the true God) up? |
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8 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 87528 | ||
No response Tim? | ||||||
9 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86647 | ||
Greetings Tim, I'm reposting my second paragraph because it seems that you have overlooked this. This is not speculation. No, it does not explicitly say that it was a demon. Nor does it say explicitly that God raised him up either, but knowing the God that I serve, he would not contradict himself. If he said in Exo 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." WHERE is the pattern of proof that God would work and listen to any witch (namely the witch of Endor) in raising Samuel (a known prophet of the true God) up? P.S. Glad to see you're still up :) |
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10 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86644 | ||
Dear Tim, Sorry for the delay in answering. It is true that only God knows the future but notice that Saul committed suicide. This doesn't make the spirit true. Satan knew that God was not with Saul anymore but with David. How easy it was for him to say that if he went out to battle, that he would fall. Whenever anyone from Israel went out to battle without the Lord on their side, they lost. Look at what happened during that time with David. He fought against the Amalekites. Look at 1 Sam 30:8. David asks God if he should go and he replies "Pursue: for thou shalt surely overtake them, and without fail recover all." Not so with Saul. You can't ignore these facts. This is not speculation. No, it does not explicitly say that it was a demon. No it does not say explicitly that God raised him up either, but knowing the God that I serve, he would not contradict himself. If he said in Exo 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." where is the pattern of proof that God would work and listen to any witch (namely the witch of Endor) in raising Samuel (a known prophet of the true God) up? This seems like simple math to me. Forgive me if I don't communicate this very well. Tim, is it even remotely possible that the spirit was not the TRUE spirit of Samuel? Knowing that the devil can assume many identities, transformations, illusions and is a master of deception, could he have been behind the apparent miracle of bringing Samuel up from sheol? Could he also be behind the apparitions of Mary? In order to establish a bible truth, there must be an example pattern of behavior on the Lord's part so that we as His children can get to know him better. I have not seen an example of the dead having conscious thought anywhere, not even in 1 Sam 28, other than in the allegory of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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11 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86537 | ||
Greetings Tim, Why would God bring up Samuel? In 1 Samuel 28:11 the witch says to Saul "Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel." Lets follow this through. The witch does a spell, calls to whomever and brings up Samuel. I need an answer Tim, where does Samuel come UP from? Did God, who commanded that all witches be put to death, raise up Samuel for the witch? or for Saul, whom he departed from? 1 Sam 28:6 "And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets." If God wouldn't answer Saul through the only methods that God provided "legally", then what makes you think it was God who brought Samuel up? Your loving brother in Christ, Phil |
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12 | Where did the dead go prior to Jesus | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86530 | ||
Forgive me DairyLeader56 for the late response. For you to state that "if the Bible says that the Rich man lifted up his eyes from hell, and that he was in torment then its true." is presumptuosly speaking because if it is literal as some would believe, then Jesus was teaching contrary to the scriptures. We know this cannot be. The only conlusion is that it must have been symbolic. I speak because I care and love my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not wish evil for any of them but that they should walk in Truth. (Amos 3:3 "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?") Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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13 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86526 | ||
Why whisk this away as a euphemism and not the entire story of the Rich Man and Lazarus as symbolic? My point in referring you to Samuel is that there is a controversy over this being Samuel or not. If it is indeed Samuel, then God is not the only one who can raise the dead. It would appear that this is a contradiction and the bible is false. If it is not Samuel, then who or what else can it be other than a deception or demon. Conscious or not in sheol/hades/grave is moot if it was indeed Samuel because the bible has contradicted itself in that Satan, the witch of Endor or whomever you choose to say, raised up Samuel from the grave. If sleep is a euphemism for death, then why did Jesus say to his disciples that Lazarus our friend sleepeth? Why did he not just tell them from the outstretch that Lazarus is dead? Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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14 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86522 | ||
Greetings Tim, It is with a heavy heart that I reply to you. I feel that you are choosing to ignore what anybody writes if it is not the answer you wish to hear. I will plainly answer your question where you ask "Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable?" The Answer: Nowhere in the entire Bible does it say that it is a parable. I should conclude then by your reasoning that because it does not explicitly say that Jesus was not using symbols, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus MUST not be symbolic but literal and that death must not be a sleep. That everywhere in the old testament where it speaks of death being a sleep is false and that the entire bible can truly be bent and twisted to mean whatever you want it to mean. Please take the examples below and show me that death is NOT a "sleep" state. 1) 1 Kings 2:10 "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David" 2) 1 Kings 11:21 "And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country." 3) 1 Kings 11:43 "And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead." 4) 1 Kings 14:20 "And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead" 5) 1 Kings 14:31 "And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead." 6) Matthew 27:52 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose," 7) 1 Corinthians 15:20 "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." 8) Deuteronomy 31:16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; ..." 9) 2 Samuel 7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee,..." 10) Psalm 13:3 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;" 11) Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,..." In regards to your statement on Luke 16, The bible does NOT say that they were all in hades. It only says that the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. THEN it says the rich man died ALSO, and was buried. The difference being one is buried and the other is carried away. If you are going to be literal, then shouldn't it apply to the whole parable and not just where it fits in to the belief? Deut 34:5-6 says that Moses died and was buried. Jude 1:7 says that he was raised by Michael the archangel. There is no controversy here. If it was indeed Samuel, then why did he say in 1 Sam 28:15 "And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?..." What did he mean by bring me UP? Up from where? The grave? Hades? This would bring up a contradiction that states that only God can raise the dead. Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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15 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86514 | ||
MaTT, I couldn't have said it better myself. Tim, That reference in Samuel and your hold on it as evidence disturbs me. That was not Samuel who appeared but a demon. 2 Cor 11:14 says:"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." Consider the following: 1) She was a witch. God said NEVER go to a witch. They were supposed to be executed. Based on your belief then, that it was indeed Samuel, am I to believe then in seances and ouija boards to find out about my future? or talk to my dearly departed? I think not. Saul was playing in the devil's territory. There is NO WAY that there could have been anything true about that. 2) This spirit that came up who CLAIMED to be Samuel said that the witch had the to power to raise him. The Bible says that only God has that power. Jesus is the ressurection and the life. The devil has no power to give life OR call a saved person like Samuel up. What he does have to power to create are illusions to deceive. 3) The Spirit also told Saul that he would be with him tomorrow? How can that be? Is Saul to be in "Abraham's bosom" like Samuel according to your belief? I heard something on the radio about Jesus always chastising with some sort of hope mingled in with it. In revelation, he follows up to the seven churches by saying "to him that OVERCOMES..." Where was the hope in this chastisement? He just told him that he was going to die. God cares for the sinner but hates the sin. He would have told Saul to repent or something so that we would not have to die. I noticed you excluded Jude 1:7. How do you explain that? I don't hear about a city somewhere in the middle East that is still burning. God wants us to think. It is the only way that we will grow as Christians. Consider when God asked Adam and Eve "Where are you?". Do you think God did not know where they were? Or when he asked Job "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,..." I am saying all this to say that we are to think, pray and study on topics. Concerning the topic of death, the bible teaches that it is a sleep (unconciousness). Moses was not dead. He was raised from his death. I gave you Jude 1:9 to show you that Moses is NOT in the grave. We have to be careful not to base a belief on a single verse in the bible but to measure it up against the whole Bible. If the "Rich Man and Lazarus" is not a parable, then do you believe that the people in hades (where the rich man was) can talk to the saved? Let us seek the truth together and FIND the truth in the bible. Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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16 | How did godly men marry several women? | 1 Corinthians | BibleStudent74 | 86270 | ||
That is incorrect [Loving Christ]. It was NEVER God's plan for ANY man (godly or not) to have more than 1 wife. There were always consequences for those godly men that had more than 1 wife. Beginning with Abraham (Edom and Israel), down to David and Solomon to name a few. There was never peace between their children and they always suffered for it. There was no NEW law that specifically said you cannot have more than 1 wife because it was already instituted from the beginning (Gen 2:24). Remember, Jesus did not come to change any law, he came to fulfill, magnify the law. See Mark 10:5-9 for clarity. |
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17 | Does Luke 16 use the term 'parable'? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86236 | ||
Blessings Tim, I have asked you to point to a scripture that proves that there is a conscious thought in death OTHER than the PARABLE of The Rich Man and Lazarus. What would you say then to 1) Matthew 21:28 "But what think ye? A CERTAIN man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard." and then a few verses down Jesus says, 2) Matthew 21:33 "Hear ANOTHER parable: There was a CERTAIN householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country..." Are these also Historical accounts? Did Jesus not speak to everyone EXCEPT the apostles in Parables? Why do you strain at a gnat yet swallow the camel that says it is historical? Surely there MUST be somewhere else in the bible that supports this theory of yours of a conscious thought in death? Don't you see, the Bible NEVER contradicts itself. If there is somewhere in the Bible that the Word of God seems to contradict itself, then the error is on our part. You cannot ignore the fact that there is no OTHER reference to the dead having a conscious thought. Jesus PLAINLY said "Lazarus is dead". I hate to speculate here but maybe they thought as you did about death and he needed to clarify it for them. So he CHOSE to say that Lazarus is sleeping and then Plainly tell them "Lazarus is dead." I asked you what the second death was to see what your thoughts were on it. There are 2 resurrections. One for the righteous(Rev 20:5,6) and one for the wicked (Rev 21:8) Chronologically, the righteous are resurrected when Jesus returns to gather the Dead and alive in Christ (1 Thes 4:16) FIRST where we spend a thousand years with him in Heaven. Then AFTER the thousand years, the wicked are resurrected to be Judged by us with Jesus. (1 Cor 6:3) After the Judgment, the wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire with Satan and all his angels. The wicked are burned and tormented for as long as it takes to burn up. Then they will be Burned forever like Sodom and Gomorrah. And they will stay burnt! Not come back to life nor live continually burning forever for all eternity like many believe. Else they would be immortal as well and God would be a liar (ref. Titus 1:2, Heb. 6:18). Dwell on these and please respond with verses. P.S. Lest there be any mistake, I am not one of those people that don't like to say when someone has died. I assure you that the dead are dead, be they wicked or righteous, and they all will be judged on even the hidden, secret things they thought and did. What I am saying is that no one is suffering in the hell that you believe in TODAY! To God be the glory, Phil "A Bible Student" |
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18 | Does Luke 16 use the term 'parable'? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86103 | ||
So then you believe in conscious thought after death? Now, I'm curious. Do you believe also in the immortal soul? What then is the second death that Rev 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8 speaks of? Lest I stray of the topic, let me clarify. The confusion lies in mixing the 2 Lazarus' up. Luke 16 is an allegory. I believe he purposely used the Name of Lazarus so that there would be no lack of conviction for the Pharisees when it would happen in reality. It is not meant to be taken literally. He spoke this parable to teach them about life and death. The importance here is related to (Matt 6:20) "But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven...", and (Matt 6:33) "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." The Pharisees were lovers of money (verse 14) and they were equated to the Rich Man's place. This is evident throughout Jesus' ministry how he despised the Hipocrisy of the Pharisees. What do you think Jesus meant when he spoke to his disciples of Lazarus? First he said, our friend Lazarus sleeps, then when they thought he meant that he is resting, Jesus plainly told them "Lazarus is dead". If Jesus described death as a sleep here, then he is merely being consistent with the old testament thought that death is a sleep. No conscious thought. Is there another text that supports conscious thought in sheol other than this one which is clearly a parable? You said that our bodies are put in the graves and not our soul and spirit. Hear me out on this one. This is the best example I think that illustrates the belief on Gen 2:7 (And the LORD God formed man of the DUST of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH of LIFE; and man became a LIVING SOUL.) To make a BOX (living soul), you need wood (dust) and nails (breath of life). When you fashion the wood in the form of a cube and nail it together, you form a box. If you remove the nails from the wood, you no longer have a box but a scrap of wood. How then can it be that there is conscious thought if there is no soul, spirit or life in the body? When you die, the breath of life is gone (no nails), and you return to dust. Sheol meaning "underworld" is consistent with the grave, abode of the dead, depths of the earth. There is no contraversy in that. I believe the error comes from the great compromise that Christians did in order to bring more pagans to the faith in the days of Constantine. Someone who loves TRUTH, Phil |
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19 | goodnewsminister, 5 yrs after Pentecost? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86102 | ||
Searcher56, I respectfully disagree with DAIRYLEADER5. Dan 9:27 speaks NOTHING of the antichrist breaking his covenant with Israel. Beware of interpretation. Read it in context without any preconceived conclusion. Also It must be concurrent if it was written in that way, else how do you know the other years were not concurrent. It seems that there is a straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel example here. I believe the TRUTH can be found if you look at history for the date in which the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem was given. According to Ezra 6:14, 7:1 this was the year 457BC. Using the day for a year guide when relating to prophesy (see num 14:34, eze 4:6) we add 70x7 or 490 years adn we have our answer. Keep in mind that there was no year 0 and that the true birth of Christ is actually 4BC according to scholars. But don't take our word for it. Verify it yourself. |
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20 | Where did the dead go prior to Jesus | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86101 | ||
WRONG POSTING! SORRY. | ||||||
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