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Results from: Notes Author: BibleStudent74 Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does Luke 16 use the term 'parable'? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86074 | ||
If there IS consciousness after death and people go to hell when they die, then why the need for a ressurection? When is the Judgment day and What is the Harvest that Jesus spoke about in Matt 13:39? | ||||||
2 | Where did the dead go prior to Jesus | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86078 | ||
Sheol is the grave. Haven't you read Ecclesiastes 9:5? Where was Lazarus then before Jesus called him forth from the grave? "John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. 13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. 14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead. The dead go to the graves and are buried. Remember that there are those that are dead in Christ and those that are NOT. But the thing that they have in common are that they are BOTH DEAD, in the graves (sheol), until the harvest meaning the end of the world. |
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3 | Does Luke 16 use the term 'parable'? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86083 | ||
Thank you for the prompt response but I would like to clarify something. I agree that at the ressurection God reunites body and soul. I also agree with your other statements. I posted this in reply to wether or not there is a consciousness after death. I believe death to be a Sleep that the dead in Crist shall be awoken from when Jesus returns and that the wicked dead shall be awoken from after the millenial reign. | ||||||
4 | Where did the dead go prior to Jesus | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86085 | ||
Correction Tim, Elijah never died (2 Kings 2:11) and Moses was resurrected (Jude 1:9). These both symbolized the dead in Christ (Moses) and the Living in Christ (Elijah) to provide hope. The Old testament saints were seen being resurrected but it does not go on to say that they told people where they were and what death was like. Many people throughout the ages have all questioned what happens after death. Are you conscious or not? Don't you think that they would have had something to say on the matter to the people if they were in Heaven or Hell? Would Lazarus have been happy to be taken away from Heaven where we ALL desire to be or did he express great thanks to Jesus for rescuing him from hell and from being tormented? Brother in Christ, it was a lie back when Satan said to Eve (Gen 3:4) "You surely will not die", and it is still a lie now. I think we are saying the same thing but I just wanted to clarify myself so as to eliminate any confusion. My apologies if I have confused anyone any further ;-) Phil |
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5 | Where did the dead go prior to Jesus | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86098 | ||
So then you believe in conscious thought after death? Now, I'm curious. Do you believe also in the immortal soul? What then is the second death that Rev 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8 speaks of? Lest I stray of the topic, let me clarify. The confusion lies in mixing the 2 Lazarus' up. Luke 16 is an allegory. I believe he purposely used the Name of Lazarus so that there would be no lack of conviction for the Pharisees when it would happen in reality. It is not meant to be taken literally. He spoke this parable to teach them about life and death. The importance here is related to (Matt 6:20) "But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven...", and (Matt 6:33) "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." The Pharisees were lovers of money (verse 14) and they were equated to the Rich Man's place. This is evident throughout Jesus' ministry how he despised the Hipocrisy of the Pharisees. What do you think Jesus meant when he spoke to his disciples of Lazarus? First he said, our friend Lazarus sleeps, then when they thought he meant that he is resting, Jesus plainly told them "Lazarus is dead". If Jesus described death as a sleep here, then he is merely being consistent with the old testament thought that death is a sleep. No conscious thought. Is there another text that supports conscious thought in sheol other than this one which is clearly a parable? You said that our bodies are put in the graves and not our soul and spirit. Hear me out on this one. This is the best example I think that illustrates the belief on Gen 2:7 (And the LORD God formed man of the DUST of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH of LIFE; and man became a LIVING SOUL.) To make a BOX (living soul), you need wood (dust) and nails (breath of life). When you fashion the wood in the form of a cube and nail it together, you form a box. If you remove the nails from the wood, you no longer have a box but a scrap of wood. How then can it be that there is conscious thought if there is no soul, spirit or life in the body? When you die, the breath of life is gone (no nails), and you return to dust. Sheol meaning "underworld" is consistent with the grave, abode of the dead, depths of the earth. There is no contraversy in that. I believe the error comes from the great compromise that Christians did in order to bring more pagans to the faith in the days of Constantine. Someone who loves TRUTH, Phil |
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6 | Where did the dead go prior to Jesus | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86099 | ||
Psalm 16:10 is true because Jesus did not stay in the Grave (Sheol) nor did his body see corruption (decay). I don't understand what you mean with the example of John 12:1-11? |
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7 | Where did the dead go prior to Jesus | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86100 | ||
Your words have added a blessing to me. Always use the sword of truth which is the bible to battle the fiery darts of the enemy. Nothing is more precious than the simple truths which Jesus himself proclaimed (John 17:17) "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." Phil |
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8 | Where did the dead go prior to Jesus | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86101 | ||
WRONG POSTING! SORRY. | ||||||
9 | goodnewsminister, 5 yrs after Pentecost? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86102 | ||
Searcher56, I respectfully disagree with DAIRYLEADER5. Dan 9:27 speaks NOTHING of the antichrist breaking his covenant with Israel. Beware of interpretation. Read it in context without any preconceived conclusion. Also It must be concurrent if it was written in that way, else how do you know the other years were not concurrent. It seems that there is a straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel example here. I believe the TRUTH can be found if you look at history for the date in which the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem was given. According to Ezra 6:14, 7:1 this was the year 457BC. Using the day for a year guide when relating to prophesy (see num 14:34, eze 4:6) we add 70x7 or 490 years adn we have our answer. Keep in mind that there was no year 0 and that the true birth of Christ is actually 4BC according to scholars. But don't take our word for it. Verify it yourself. |
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10 | Does Luke 16 use the term 'parable'? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86103 | ||
So then you believe in conscious thought after death? Now, I'm curious. Do you believe also in the immortal soul? What then is the second death that Rev 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8 speaks of? Lest I stray of the topic, let me clarify. The confusion lies in mixing the 2 Lazarus' up. Luke 16 is an allegory. I believe he purposely used the Name of Lazarus so that there would be no lack of conviction for the Pharisees when it would happen in reality. It is not meant to be taken literally. He spoke this parable to teach them about life and death. The importance here is related to (Matt 6:20) "But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven...", and (Matt 6:33) "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." The Pharisees were lovers of money (verse 14) and they were equated to the Rich Man's place. This is evident throughout Jesus' ministry how he despised the Hipocrisy of the Pharisees. What do you think Jesus meant when he spoke to his disciples of Lazarus? First he said, our friend Lazarus sleeps, then when they thought he meant that he is resting, Jesus plainly told them "Lazarus is dead". If Jesus described death as a sleep here, then he is merely being consistent with the old testament thought that death is a sleep. No conscious thought. Is there another text that supports conscious thought in sheol other than this one which is clearly a parable? You said that our bodies are put in the graves and not our soul and spirit. Hear me out on this one. This is the best example I think that illustrates the belief on Gen 2:7 (And the LORD God formed man of the DUST of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the BREATH of LIFE; and man became a LIVING SOUL.) To make a BOX (living soul), you need wood (dust) and nails (breath of life). When you fashion the wood in the form of a cube and nail it together, you form a box. If you remove the nails from the wood, you no longer have a box but a scrap of wood. How then can it be that there is conscious thought if there is no soul, spirit or life in the body? When you die, the breath of life is gone (no nails), and you return to dust. Sheol meaning "underworld" is consistent with the grave, abode of the dead, depths of the earth. There is no contraversy in that. I believe the error comes from the great compromise that Christians did in order to bring more pagans to the faith in the days of Constantine. Someone who loves TRUTH, Phil |
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11 | Does Luke 16 use the term 'parable'? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86236 | ||
Blessings Tim, I have asked you to point to a scripture that proves that there is a conscious thought in death OTHER than the PARABLE of The Rich Man and Lazarus. What would you say then to 1) Matthew 21:28 "But what think ye? A CERTAIN man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard." and then a few verses down Jesus says, 2) Matthew 21:33 "Hear ANOTHER parable: There was a CERTAIN householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country..." Are these also Historical accounts? Did Jesus not speak to everyone EXCEPT the apostles in Parables? Why do you strain at a gnat yet swallow the camel that says it is historical? Surely there MUST be somewhere else in the bible that supports this theory of yours of a conscious thought in death? Don't you see, the Bible NEVER contradicts itself. If there is somewhere in the Bible that the Word of God seems to contradict itself, then the error is on our part. You cannot ignore the fact that there is no OTHER reference to the dead having a conscious thought. Jesus PLAINLY said "Lazarus is dead". I hate to speculate here but maybe they thought as you did about death and he needed to clarify it for them. So he CHOSE to say that Lazarus is sleeping and then Plainly tell them "Lazarus is dead." I asked you what the second death was to see what your thoughts were on it. There are 2 resurrections. One for the righteous(Rev 20:5,6) and one for the wicked (Rev 21:8) Chronologically, the righteous are resurrected when Jesus returns to gather the Dead and alive in Christ (1 Thes 4:16) FIRST where we spend a thousand years with him in Heaven. Then AFTER the thousand years, the wicked are resurrected to be Judged by us with Jesus. (1 Cor 6:3) After the Judgment, the wicked are cast into the Lake of Fire with Satan and all his angels. The wicked are burned and tormented for as long as it takes to burn up. Then they will be Burned forever like Sodom and Gomorrah. And they will stay burnt! Not come back to life nor live continually burning forever for all eternity like many believe. Else they would be immortal as well and God would be a liar (ref. Titus 1:2, Heb. 6:18). Dwell on these and please respond with verses. P.S. Lest there be any mistake, I am not one of those people that don't like to say when someone has died. I assure you that the dead are dead, be they wicked or righteous, and they all will be judged on even the hidden, secret things they thought and did. What I am saying is that no one is suffering in the hell that you believe in TODAY! To God be the glory, Phil "A Bible Student" |
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12 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86514 | ||
MaTT, I couldn't have said it better myself. Tim, That reference in Samuel and your hold on it as evidence disturbs me. That was not Samuel who appeared but a demon. 2 Cor 11:14 says:"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." Consider the following: 1) She was a witch. God said NEVER go to a witch. They were supposed to be executed. Based on your belief then, that it was indeed Samuel, am I to believe then in seances and ouija boards to find out about my future? or talk to my dearly departed? I think not. Saul was playing in the devil's territory. There is NO WAY that there could have been anything true about that. 2) This spirit that came up who CLAIMED to be Samuel said that the witch had the to power to raise him. The Bible says that only God has that power. Jesus is the ressurection and the life. The devil has no power to give life OR call a saved person like Samuel up. What he does have to power to create are illusions to deceive. 3) The Spirit also told Saul that he would be with him tomorrow? How can that be? Is Saul to be in "Abraham's bosom" like Samuel according to your belief? I heard something on the radio about Jesus always chastising with some sort of hope mingled in with it. In revelation, he follows up to the seven churches by saying "to him that OVERCOMES..." Where was the hope in this chastisement? He just told him that he was going to die. God cares for the sinner but hates the sin. He would have told Saul to repent or something so that we would not have to die. I noticed you excluded Jude 1:7. How do you explain that? I don't hear about a city somewhere in the middle East that is still burning. God wants us to think. It is the only way that we will grow as Christians. Consider when God asked Adam and Eve "Where are you?". Do you think God did not know where they were? Or when he asked Job "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,..." I am saying all this to say that we are to think, pray and study on topics. Concerning the topic of death, the bible teaches that it is a sleep (unconciousness). Moses was not dead. He was raised from his death. I gave you Jude 1:9 to show you that Moses is NOT in the grave. We have to be careful not to base a belief on a single verse in the bible but to measure it up against the whole Bible. If the "Rich Man and Lazarus" is not a parable, then do you believe that the people in hades (where the rich man was) can talk to the saved? Let us seek the truth together and FIND the truth in the bible. Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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13 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86522 | ||
Greetings Tim, It is with a heavy heart that I reply to you. I feel that you are choosing to ignore what anybody writes if it is not the answer you wish to hear. I will plainly answer your question where you ask "Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable?" The Answer: Nowhere in the entire Bible does it say that it is a parable. I should conclude then by your reasoning that because it does not explicitly say that Jesus was not using symbols, the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus MUST not be symbolic but literal and that death must not be a sleep. That everywhere in the old testament where it speaks of death being a sleep is false and that the entire bible can truly be bent and twisted to mean whatever you want it to mean. Please take the examples below and show me that death is NOT a "sleep" state. 1) 1 Kings 2:10 "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David" 2) 1 Kings 11:21 "And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country." 3) 1 Kings 11:43 "And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead." 4) 1 Kings 14:20 "And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead" 5) 1 Kings 14:31 "And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead." 6) Matthew 27:52 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose," 7) 1 Corinthians 15:20 "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." 8) Deuteronomy 31:16 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; ..." 9) 2 Samuel 7:12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee,..." 10) Psalm 13:3 "Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;" 11) Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,..." In regards to your statement on Luke 16, The bible does NOT say that they were all in hades. It only says that the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. THEN it says the rich man died ALSO, and was buried. The difference being one is buried and the other is carried away. If you are going to be literal, then shouldn't it apply to the whole parable and not just where it fits in to the belief? Deut 34:5-6 says that Moses died and was buried. Jude 1:7 says that he was raised by Michael the archangel. There is no controversy here. If it was indeed Samuel, then why did he say in 1 Sam 28:15 "And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?..." What did he mean by bring me UP? Up from where? The grave? Hades? This would bring up a contradiction that states that only God can raise the dead. Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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14 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86526 | ||
Why whisk this away as a euphemism and not the entire story of the Rich Man and Lazarus as symbolic? My point in referring you to Samuel is that there is a controversy over this being Samuel or not. If it is indeed Samuel, then God is not the only one who can raise the dead. It would appear that this is a contradiction and the bible is false. If it is not Samuel, then who or what else can it be other than a deception or demon. Conscious or not in sheol/hades/grave is moot if it was indeed Samuel because the bible has contradicted itself in that Satan, the witch of Endor or whomever you choose to say, raised up Samuel from the grave. If sleep is a euphemism for death, then why did Jesus say to his disciples that Lazarus our friend sleepeth? Why did he not just tell them from the outstretch that Lazarus is dead? Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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15 | Where did the dead go prior to Jesus | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86530 | ||
Forgive me DairyLeader56 for the late response. For you to state that "if the Bible says that the Rich man lifted up his eyes from hell, and that he was in torment then its true." is presumptuosly speaking because if it is literal as some would believe, then Jesus was teaching contrary to the scriptures. We know this cannot be. The only conlusion is that it must have been symbolic. I speak because I care and love my brothers and sisters in Christ. I do not wish evil for any of them but that they should walk in Truth. (Amos 3:3 "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?") Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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16 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86537 | ||
Greetings Tim, Why would God bring up Samuel? In 1 Samuel 28:11 the witch says to Saul "Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel." Lets follow this through. The witch does a spell, calls to whomever and brings up Samuel. I need an answer Tim, where does Samuel come UP from? Did God, who commanded that all witches be put to death, raise up Samuel for the witch? or for Saul, whom he departed from? 1 Sam 28:6 "And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets." If God wouldn't answer Saul through the only methods that God provided "legally", then what makes you think it was God who brought Samuel up? Your loving brother in Christ, Phil |
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17 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86644 | ||
Dear Tim, Sorry for the delay in answering. It is true that only God knows the future but notice that Saul committed suicide. This doesn't make the spirit true. Satan knew that God was not with Saul anymore but with David. How easy it was for him to say that if he went out to battle, that he would fall. Whenever anyone from Israel went out to battle without the Lord on their side, they lost. Look at what happened during that time with David. He fought against the Amalekites. Look at 1 Sam 30:8. David asks God if he should go and he replies "Pursue: for thou shalt surely overtake them, and without fail recover all." Not so with Saul. You can't ignore these facts. This is not speculation. No, it does not explicitly say that it was a demon. No it does not say explicitly that God raised him up either, but knowing the God that I serve, he would not contradict himself. If he said in Exo 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." where is the pattern of proof that God would work and listen to any witch (namely the witch of Endor) in raising Samuel (a known prophet of the true God) up? This seems like simple math to me. Forgive me if I don't communicate this very well. Tim, is it even remotely possible that the spirit was not the TRUE spirit of Samuel? Knowing that the devil can assume many identities, transformations, illusions and is a master of deception, could he have been behind the apparent miracle of bringing Samuel up from sheol? Could he also be behind the apparitions of Mary? In order to establish a bible truth, there must be an example pattern of behavior on the Lord's part so that we as His children can get to know him better. I have not seen an example of the dead having conscious thought anywhere, not even in 1 Sam 28, other than in the allegory of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Your brother in Christ, Phil |
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18 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 86647 | ||
Greetings Tim, I'm reposting my second paragraph because it seems that you have overlooked this. This is not speculation. No, it does not explicitly say that it was a demon. Nor does it say explicitly that God raised him up either, but knowing the God that I serve, he would not contradict himself. If he said in Exo 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." WHERE is the pattern of proof that God would work and listen to any witch (namely the witch of Endor) in raising Samuel (a known prophet of the true God) up? P.S. Glad to see you're still up :) |
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19 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 87528 | ||
No response Tim? | ||||||
20 | Where is Luke 16:19ff called a parable? | Luke 16:23 | BibleStudent74 | 87574 | ||
the response to this post, Note: Greetings Tim, I'm reposting my second paragraph because it seems that you have overlooked this. This is not speculation. No, it does not explicitly say that it was a demon. Nor does it say explicitly that God raised him up either, but knowing the God that I serve, he would not contradict himself. If he said in Exo 22:18 "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." WHERE is the pattern of proof that God would work and listen to any witch (namely the witch of Endor) in raising Samuel (a known prophet of the true God) up? |
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