Results 1 - 8 of 8
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Call from God! | Bible general Archive 4 | DocTrinsograce | 217417 | ||
Dear srts5, You wrote, "I am absolutely positive Francis Roberts wrote that. Just not the Francis Roberts you are thinking of." (sic) Ah... that explains it. You wrote, "I am however puzzled by the statement 'very solidly Scriptural, Puritan'." Doctor Francis Roberts was an English Puritan born in 1609 and died in 1675. I will briefly -- not exhaustively -- explain a bit of the obvious disconnect: No Puritan would presume to assert broadly, without knowing them, that they belong to Christ (Jeremiah 6:14; Matthew 7:20-24), as your Roberts has done. No Puritan would presume to assert that God needed anything from men (Psalm 50:12-14; Isaiah 40:14-18; Acts 17:25), as your Roberts has done. No Puritan would affirm assurance outside of the promises and work of God (Matthew 7:21-24; John 3:8; Luke 6:43-45; Acts 4:12), as your Roberts has done. No Puritan would presume to assert that God could be thwarted by human willingness (Zechariah 4:6; Romans 9:16), as your Roberts has done. No Puritan would presume to speak for God (Jeremiah 23:31-32; Matthew 7:22), as your Roberts has done. Actually, Francis Roberts -- the Puritan -- wrote, "There must be constant caution that all tongues, arts, histories, translations, and comments be duly ranked in their proper place, in a subserviency under, not a regency or predominancy over the Holy Scriptures, which are to control them all. For when Hagar shall once usurp over her mistress, it's high time to cast her out of doors till she submit herself." Although it is kind of you to share with us what your Roberts has written, we are a Study Bible Forum. Our love, interest, focus, and rule is the Word of God itself. It alone has the authority to bind and persuade. Hence, had your Roberts made her assertions backed by the Word of God -- that which God holds above His own Name -- we receive enlightenment, edification, and encouragement. You wrote, "I find the two [Scriptural and Puritan?] to be at odds..." I would be interested in what you can cite from American, Dutch, English, or Scottish Puritans that you find contrary to Scripture (providing references to that, too, of course). To what extent are you familiar with them? You continued, "...unless you wish to return to the law." My wishes, your wishes, our wishes would neither make the long dead Puritans more Scriptural or less Scriptural in their doctrines -- they were what they were by the grace of God. If you like, we can discuss Pro-Nomianism (legalism) and Anti-Nomianism (libertinism) -- in the light of the Word -- in another thread. I can speak somewhat knowledgeably about the Puritan understanding of these things. However, I can speak a bit more knowledgeably about the Historic Baptist understanding, if you are interested. In Him, Doc |
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2 | Call from God! | Bible general Archive 4 | strts5 | 217451 | ||
Doc, I apologize, my tone and response to you was not very Christian like. I have not studied Puritanism very much, but I have read a little history. Until you mentioned it I had never heard of Dr. Francis Roberts, so his writings are unfamiliar to me. However when someone makes a statement that there are no Puritan writings or writings from Dr. Frances Roberts contrary to scripture I think that is foolish at best. There are plenty of court documents and historical writings that tend not to lend themselves kindly to American Puritist movement. Dr. Francis Roberts may or may not have had anything to do with these events, I do not know. To address what you said of her writings, they were never intended to be scripture, just conversations she had with God throughout her life. They were only her interpretation of those conversations and published only to inspire others that dialogue with God is truly a two way conversation. I'm sure most of the Saints who wrote the Bible had many such conversations with God, however God saw fit to include only small snippets into the Bible, which were Scripture. Francis J Roberts writing were not and are not Scripture and should never be mistaken for such. Searcher56, Thank you, Francis J Roberts passed away a little after 1pm June 23, 2009. She never allowed a biography of herself to be published as she did not want recognition for the things she did in her life. I learned much about my Grandmother at her funeral where many people told stories of how she had served them, most of which immediate family was not aware. I truly learned a lot about what it means to truly unselfishly serve Christ. One of the Pastors who spoke said these kind words, "a sermon reference the Bible, and a Eulogy references a persons life. In the case of Francis, the two are difficult to tell apart." In Him, Mike Roberts |
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3 | Call from God! | Bible general Archive 4 | DocTrinsograce | 217468 | ||
Dear Mike, I never read "tone" into posts. Too much subjectivity is necessary to ferret out what people are emoting. I just treat the text as text, and take what people write at face value. The frees me from the burden of interpreting emotion. It is a difficult enough task to derive denotation from what people are writing than to have to worry about connotation too. Dr. Francis Roberts was quite distanced from the Salem witch trials to which -- I think -- you are referring. He was over 3,000 miles away, and dead for 25 years before the first incident. Even those trial transcripts, though, if read within the context of what was actually taking place in New England make more sense to believers than they do when obliquely and critically referenced by non-Christian historians of the twentieth century. It was Puritan ministers that put a stop to the witch trials being carried out by the colonial government in Massachusetts. How often will you hear that fact these days? You might be interested in Cotton Mather's account of that period in America in his book entitled "The Wonders of the Invisible World." Given what they were facing, I wonder how men like you and I would have dealt with the issues? I also wonder how we will fare in the eyes of believers who come hundreds of years hence. Will the only descriptions accepted of us be from people like Barney Frank and Richard Dawkins? Or will we be known by having quotations of Joel Osteen and Robert Schuller? Will they wonder how we tolerated the killing of millions upon millions of infants? Perhaps they will even say that "Christian America" was responsible for the legalization of abortion. In Him, Doc |
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4 | Call from God! | Bible general Archive 4 | strts5 | 217474 | ||
Doc, I speak from ignorance, so apologize in advance. I will do more reading as I am sure the Puritans have many treasures to offer the modern Church. Without much knowledge of the Puritans, at face value my "opinion" is they spent much of their time doing "works" out of fear. They do not seem to have a confidence in the Salvation of Christ toward all who believe, but rather lean toward predestination and live their lives in fear that they may not be predestined. Something that the Baptist Church has a firm grasp on. They know they are saved and only do good works out the abundance of that knowledge. The puritans seem motivated by fear, and when fear is the motivation it has been my experience something is lacking. Now this is only my opinion out of a very cursory study of Puritans. Please feel free to correct me if I misunderstand something. In Love, Mike |
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5 | Call from God! | Bible general Archive 4 | DocTrinsograce | 217480 | ||
Dear Mike, Interestingly enough, the Puritans were much given to writing journals. Consequently, we have a huge quantity of information about how they thought and lived. Jonathan Edwards represents the pinnacle of Puritan thought wrote, "The enjoyment of [God] is the only happiness with which our souls can be satisfied. To go to heaven, to fully enjoy God, is infinitely better than the most pleasant accommodations here. Fathers and mothers, husbands, wives, or children, or the company of earthly friends, are but shadows; but the enjoyment of God is the substance. These are but scattered beams, but God is the sun. These are but streams. But God is the fountain. These are but drops; but God is the ocean." Predestination is actually a very minor point in Puritan thinking. Like the fear thing, it looms large in the minds of those who resist the doctrine of God's sovereignty. Paul is the one who brings it up in his epistles to the Romans and the Ephesians in the context of assurance in God's eternal purpose. As I pointed out before, the Puritans were concerned that nothing of the Scripture be ignored or augmented. (By the way, predestination is a Baptist doctrinal distinctive too, you know.) In terms of the idea that works give rise to salvation -- this is called legalism -- that doctrine is alien to Puritanism. The ordo salutis is well documented in the Westminster confessions. The Baptist thinking on this point actually lifts that language directly from the Westminster confession. :-) Mike, I hope that you would seriously ferret out the truth. Historic revisionism has stolen a wonderful set of Christian brothers from many of us these days. What a shame that our modern shallowness, ignorance of history, and reverse chronological chauvinism prevents us from knowing those who went before us. The consequence is that we fail to learn from them, no matter whether those lessons might represent correctness or error. Consequently, we continue to fail in revival, zeal, righteousness, knowledge, etc. If you want to begin to ferret out the truth, a very easy and enjoyable read is Peter Marshall's "The Light and the Glory." It will help to put the Puritans in proper historical perspective. In Him, Doc |
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6 | Call from God! | Bible general Archive 4 | Searcher56 | 217482 | ||
God's day to you, Doc, I am confused. It is you who thought Francis Roberts was a Purtian (ID# 217401). The Frances Roberts that Mike mentioned is his grandmother (ID# 217451). Why are you pushing the Purtian Roberts? I believe you are wrong and owe Mike an apology. Next time do a little research. Or am I wrong? Searcher |
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7 | Call from God! | Bible general Archive 4 | Makarios | 217485 | ||
Greetings Searcher56! According to http://www.puritanboard.com/f18/francis-roberts-22125/, "Francis Roberts, English Puritan (1609 - 1675) was a Presbyterian minister who conformed at the Restoration. He published a metrical version of the Psalms (1644) and is most famous for his "1750-page magnum opus on the covenants (The Mystery and Marrow of the Bible: viz. God’s Covenants with Man, 1657)," a copy of which exists at PTRS's Puritan Resource Center (1). For a recent study of his theology, see Won Taek Lim, The Covenant Theology of Francis Roberts (2007)." (posted by VirginiaHuguenot) Therefore, Doc is correct in pointing out that there was a fellow named Francis Roberts who lived during Puritan times. The fact that Mike mentioned his grandmother is quite possibly just a misunderstanding between Doc and Mike, and only clarification (and not an apology) would be needed to bring a more constructive approach to the dialogue. Blessings to you, Makarios (1) http://www.puritanseminary.org/ |
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8 | Call from God! | Bible general Archive 4 | stjohn | 217491 | ||
Amen. | ||||||