Results 1 - 3 of 3
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Does Satan Really Exist? | Bible general Archive 3 | drbloor | 166178 | ||
This is really what I'm talking about - you have read the name Satan in Job and assumed, without assessing external evidence (at least in this answer), that this refers to a fallen angel/evil supernatural being. Of course Job says none of these things. The word Satan in and of itself does not mean "fallen angel" or "evil supernatural badguy", it means quite simply "adversary". I am certain that there was an adversary in Job, and I am certain that he was a person, but I find it impossible to conclude that he was an evil angel. What you need to be able to connect the word Satan with a fallen angel, is a passage of scripture that says "Satan is a fallen angel". This passage is not in The Bible. We are given the stories of many righteous men - Noah, Abraham, David, Jesus, Paul etc. and even the stories of many wicked men in the Bible - Cain, Pharaoh, Saul, Nebuchadnezzar etc. But we are not given such a story about a fallen angel Satan (unless we pervert chapters such as Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, which are clearly prophesies regarding earthly kings which came to pass). Also, I do not understand the idea that the fallen angel Satan cannot do anything except with Divine permission. This conveys the idea to me that Satan is not a fallen angel, but an obedient one, carrying out tasks according to Divine permission. It also begs the question - why did God give Divine permission for Satan to attempt to overthrow him? Finally, it's interesting to point out that the Apostle James (quite possibly the brother of Jesus) does not believe in Satan: James 1:14,15 "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." That is the sum of temptation - we are drawn away by our own lusts and enticed into sin. We have no-one else to blame but ourselves. |
||||||
2 | Does Satan Really Exist? | Bible general Archive 3 | ebrain | 166298 | ||
Thank you drbloor for your posts of 17th, and 19th of Jan 06. In reply let me comment as follows. You ask if Satan is a person or not, you then state that the word Satan means adversary, this of course is correct, you then go on to say "there was a adversary in Job, and I am certain he was a person", Thereby answering the very question you had just asked? You state that Isaiah Ch 14, and Ezekiel Ch 28 refer to to men only, and not to Satan, if this is so then please explain how the king of Babylon fell from Heaven as described in verse 12? In Ezekiel 28:13, how did the king of Tyre get into the "Eden, the garden of God"? Now regardind Divine permission, in my ESV Bibly, Job 2:6, reads, And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life", please tell me how this can be considered as anything other than Divine permission?. God also uses the personal pronoun "your". indicating that He, God is speaking to a person, and not something other that a person. |
||||||
3 | Does Satan Really Exist? | Bible general Archive 3 | drbloor | 166302 | ||
Hi, and thanks for the post! As you may see from other posts, (please do see my final posts to mark and CDBJ if you can, they say far more than I will here to avoid repetition). I am in the process of wrapping things up as far as doctrinal disputation goes. It does not appear that this is the place or time for it. As for the points in your post, I will answer them, and then shut-up and keep my postings to non-doctrinal, non-argumentative issues. I hope you understand the sentiment. 1. I may not have explained myself fully regarding "Is Satan a person". What I meant is that I fully believe that people have been Satan, but that Satan is not one individual supernatural fallen angel. The comparison of 1 Chron 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1 show that God can act as a Satan, Numbers 22:22 shows that an obedient non-fallen angel can act as Satan and Matthew 16:23 shows that Peter could act as a Satan. These are all different people, all acting as adversaries. a.) God acted as an adversary to Israel. b.) The angel acted as an adversary to Balaam and his ass. c.) Peter acted as an adversary to Christ. None of these Satans were referred to as fallen angels. 2. The answer to the point about Ezekiel is at the end of this post. It is quite long and cut and pasted from the full answer I gave regarding Ezekiel 28 which was restricted from view by the moderators (I fully agree with their decision by the way.). 3. I agree that God gives Divine permission for what befell Job. It is interesting to note who is held responsible for what was done to Job: Job 1:16 the fire of God (not the fire of Satan) Job 1:21 LORD gave and the LORD has taken away Job 2:10 accept good from the LORD and not trouble Job 19:21 the hand of God has struck me Job 27:2 Almighty, who has made me taste bitterness Job 42:11 all the trouble the LORD had brought on him It is clear that it is God that struck Job, and not Satan. As Isaiah says: Isaiah 47:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Okay, that sums it up for me. In future I will only be posting on non-doctrinal issues - I just felt it rude to leave this post unanswered. If you feel that I am trying to "get the last word in" as it were, by all means post in response and I will read it. I will not answer though. I hope you agree with this. Best regards, Dr. B. EZEKIEL 28 ANSWER: "He was in Eden. (Ezekiel 28:13). This appears to be a prosaic device, or for want of a better definition, a metaphor. There is clear evidence that Ezekiel uses this device elsewhere – in fact in chapter 31 Ezekiel describes Assyria as a tree in the Garden of Eden. Unless Assyria WAS in fact a literal tree in the Garden of Eden, and was somehow later transmogrified into a nation or person, this argument does not stand. It is more probable that Ezekiel is here comparing the fall of Tyre to the fall of Adam in Eden. This is borne out in verse 15: Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." This verse exactly fits the fall of Adam, which is a historical event already recorded in The Bible, unlike the fall of Satan. If a verse in the Bible refers us to another part of Scripture, surely we must analyse this before we introduce an extra-Biblical conception. In other words, we must extrapolate Scriptural teachings from Scripture, not interpolate extra-Biblical teachings into Scripture. And you cannot back-up your argument that Ezekiel 28 refers to the fall of Satan by presenting Ezekiel 28 as corroborating evidence. If your best source of evidence for the fall of Satan is Ezekiel 28, and the only way you know it is the fall of Satan is "because it sounds like the fall of Satan" then yours is a circular argument. If we are told that this person was in the Garden of Eden and was perfect until iniquity was found in him, then the only logical step is to see who The Bible (not man) says was in Eden and was perfect until iniquity was found in him. There is only one candidate – Adam. This must therefore be a comparison between the fall of Tyre and the fall of Adam. In fact, the comparison between Adam and the king of Tyre runs throughout Ezekiel 28: Ezekiel 28:2 "thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God". Genesis 3:5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods" According to The Bible, this was the sin of Adam – that he set his heart as the heart of God. That he believed that he could become "as God". Note that this is NOT the sin of the serpent, at least not according to The Bible account." |
||||||