Subject: Does Satan Really Exist? |
Bible Note: Hi, and thanks for the post! As you may see from other posts, (please do see my final posts to mark and CDBJ if you can, they say far more than I will here to avoid repetition). I am in the process of wrapping things up as far as doctrinal disputation goes. It does not appear that this is the place or time for it. As for the points in your post, I will answer them, and then shut-up and keep my postings to non-doctrinal, non-argumentative issues. I hope you understand the sentiment. 1. I may not have explained myself fully regarding "Is Satan a person". What I meant is that I fully believe that people have been Satan, but that Satan is not one individual supernatural fallen angel. The comparison of 1 Chron 21:1 and 2 Samuel 24:1 show that God can act as a Satan, Numbers 22:22 shows that an obedient non-fallen angel can act as Satan and Matthew 16:23 shows that Peter could act as a Satan. These are all different people, all acting as adversaries. a.) God acted as an adversary to Israel. b.) The angel acted as an adversary to Balaam and his ass. c.) Peter acted as an adversary to Christ. None of these Satans were referred to as fallen angels. 2. The answer to the point about Ezekiel is at the end of this post. It is quite long and cut and pasted from the full answer I gave regarding Ezekiel 28 which was restricted from view by the moderators (I fully agree with their decision by the way.). 3. I agree that God gives Divine permission for what befell Job. It is interesting to note who is held responsible for what was done to Job: Job 1:16 the fire of God (not the fire of Satan) Job 1:21 LORD gave and the LORD has taken away Job 2:10 accept good from the LORD and not trouble Job 19:21 the hand of God has struck me Job 27:2 Almighty, who has made me taste bitterness Job 42:11 all the trouble the LORD had brought on him It is clear that it is God that struck Job, and not Satan. As Isaiah says: Isaiah 47:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Okay, that sums it up for me. In future I will only be posting on non-doctrinal issues - I just felt it rude to leave this post unanswered. If you feel that I am trying to "get the last word in" as it were, by all means post in response and I will read it. I will not answer though. I hope you agree with this. Best regards, Dr. B. EZEKIEL 28 ANSWER: "He was in Eden. (Ezekiel 28:13). This appears to be a prosaic device, or for want of a better definition, a metaphor. There is clear evidence that Ezekiel uses this device elsewhere – in fact in chapter 31 Ezekiel describes Assyria as a tree in the Garden of Eden. Unless Assyria WAS in fact a literal tree in the Garden of Eden, and was somehow later transmogrified into a nation or person, this argument does not stand. It is more probable that Ezekiel is here comparing the fall of Tyre to the fall of Adam in Eden. This is borne out in verse 15: Ezekiel 28:15 "Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee." This verse exactly fits the fall of Adam, which is a historical event already recorded in The Bible, unlike the fall of Satan. If a verse in the Bible refers us to another part of Scripture, surely we must analyse this before we introduce an extra-Biblical conception. In other words, we must extrapolate Scriptural teachings from Scripture, not interpolate extra-Biblical teachings into Scripture. And you cannot back-up your argument that Ezekiel 28 refers to the fall of Satan by presenting Ezekiel 28 as corroborating evidence. If your best source of evidence for the fall of Satan is Ezekiel 28, and the only way you know it is the fall of Satan is "because it sounds like the fall of Satan" then yours is a circular argument. If we are told that this person was in the Garden of Eden and was perfect until iniquity was found in him, then the only logical step is to see who The Bible (not man) says was in Eden and was perfect until iniquity was found in him. There is only one candidate – Adam. This must therefore be a comparison between the fall of Tyre and the fall of Adam. In fact, the comparison between Adam and the king of Tyre runs throughout Ezekiel 28: Ezekiel 28:2 "thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God". Genesis 3:5 "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods" According to The Bible, this was the sin of Adam – that he set his heart as the heart of God. That he believed that he could become "as God". Note that this is NOT the sin of the serpent, at least not according to The Bible account." |