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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128695 | ||
Hi Tim, Like I said, Jesus did fulfill Zech 9, but that is not who God was talking about in Zech.9. Jesus fulfilled (gave full and ulitimate meaning) to the whole OT...that is not what I am talking about. I am simply explaining the original intent of the OT passage. Matthew 2 and Hosea 11 might illuminate my point more clearly. In Hos.11, God clearly was not talking about Jesus. He was talking about the literal community of Israel, whom He brought up out of Egypt. Jesus was also called out of Egypt, so he in effect fulfills this, but God was not talking about Jesus in Hos.11- He was talking about the Hebrew nation whom He saved from Egyptian bondage. In reference to Micah 5, I think that I stated somewhere else that these Messianic hopes of a Priest and King (and Prophet and Great Teacher) were developed in the Inter-Testamental period. Take a look at CD (the Damascus Document) xii.23; CD xix.10-11; CD xx.1ff; 1QS ix.10-11, and also the Testament of the 12 Patriarchs. Zech.4:14, Haggai 2:20ff were seed passages for the messiah theology of the 1st century, which were developed in the Inter-Tesamental period as shown above. This is why we have all of these expected figures in the gospels which were never spoken of in the OT. (cf.Jn.1:19-22) Joel 2:28ff was the seed passage for the prophet theology of the 1st Century, and was developed in the IT period as well. (cf.Jn.4:25) [footnote: I do not consider the IT works to be inspired, but they did have a large influence on the 1st Century view of the Messiah.] chesed |
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2 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | mark d seyler | 128703 | ||
Hi Chesed, 1 Pet 1:10-12 "As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven--things into which angels long to look." Remember that even the prophets who wrote the prophecies didn't alway know the full application of the prophecies given by them. I believe I understand what you are saying, and correct me if I am wrong, that the actual words written, in such as Zechariah and Micah and Hosea, referred to others besides Messiah, and it was only later that NT writers gave an additional fulfillment to these scriptures. I take exception to referring to the "original intent" as other than speaking of Jesus. Matt 2 and Hos 11 I think illustrate this very well. It is only by reading Matt. that we understand God's true intent when He spoke through Hosea. John 5:39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;" Heb 10:7 "THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME (IN THE SCROLL OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME) TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.'" As has often been said, in the Old Testament the New is concealled. In the New, the Old is revealled. The theology of the Messiah that I am interested in is that which is revealled by the Holy Spirit. (Yes, I am "Sola Scripura" - a term I had never heard before,but fits me like a glove!) The theology of the Messiah at the time of Jesus was adequately skewwed that they crucified Him! I believe God gave us His word that we may know Him, and that the way we know Him is through Jesus, therefore, it is all about Jesus! Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128713 | ||
Mark, that is a perfectly acceptable view, and a very common one. I agree with you, with Peter, with Jesus my Lord, etc. I have not ever said that Jesus is not the fulfillment of the OT. I say that the OT was not only about Jesus. God spoke to people in their time, spoke to their situation, and gave then a relevant message. I know this is difficult to understand, but the OT is not a bunch of scripture references to back up one's NT theology. It stands alone. Jesus lived a life which was perfect. He fulfilled the Law. He did many things which sounded just like something that happened in the OT. He even did things that the prophets wrote about which no one else in history ever did. All of this is shown in the NT. We agree on this. What we disagree on is the issue of whether or not there was an OT context and OT fulfillment of prophesy. I think there usually was. Prophesy does not have to be fulfilled in one person or event alone. Jesus may not have been the first fulfillment, but he was the ultimate fulfillment. chesed |
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