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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | srbaegon | 128647 | ||
Hello chesed, As Hank stated, what you purport is quite controversial. If at any time, you would like to communicate about it privately, you can e-mail me at srbricker@hotmail.com. And any of those wanting to jump into a private communication are welcome. :-) And yes, you can disagree. I have two difficulties with calling these simply typological interpretation: 1) Several of the OT passages attributed to Christ were clearly Messianic and the people acted accordingly. For instance: Matthew 21:6-9 (ESV) The disciples went and did as Jesus had directed them. [7] They brought the donkey and the colt and put on them their cloaks, and he sat on them. [8] Most of the crowd spread their cloaks on the road, and others cut branches from the trees and spread them on the road. [9] And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, "Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!" The crowd understood the symbolism of Jesus' actions. The prophet had declared that the future king would ride into town on a donkey, and the crowd acknowledged this as fulfillment. 2) There were those who didn't even believe on him who knew how the prophesies were to be fulfilled: Matthew 2:3-6 (ESV) When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him; [4] and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. [5] They told him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet: [6] " 'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.'" Your statement: "Plus, Jesus was a 1st century Jew- that was a common hermenuetical method." I'm not sure of your meaning here. Lastly, my question to you would be: Must a prophecy give the name of a person before it can rightly be applied to him/her? Steve |
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2 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128691 | ||
Hi Steve, My statement about Jesus and others being first Century Jews ties in with #1 and #2 of your previous post. As you know, the hermeneutical methods used by the Jews of the first Century were four-fold: Literal, midrashic, pesher, and allegorical. For the most part, when dealing with OT prophesy, Jesus, his followers, and the NT writers often subscribed to the pesher method, which was very much focussed on contemporary application, often without ceoncern for the original OT context. There is nothing wrong with this approach in and of itself- it was just a common method...but the fact is that it did not take into account the OT context; it simply made a present-day application. #1) Mt.21 comes from Zechariah 9. In the context of Zechariah 9, we do have a prophesy, but it is not about Jesus. Yes, Jesus 'fulfilled' this verse by doing the same thing, but in the original context this was referring to someone else (most scholars would say Simon Maccabbees). #2) Mt.2:3-6 comes from Micah 5, which refers to the faithful remnant in Babylonian captivity who would 'give birth to' a new King of peace when they returned. (we see in Zechariah that this was to be Zerubabel...but others interpret this to be Joshua). And to answer your last question in a word, no. Most prophesies do not include the name of the person being referred to. I hope this clears up what I am trying to say. chesed |
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3 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | Morant61 | 128694 | ||
Greetings Chesed! You are correct that it was common practice to pull passages from their original contexts. Many verses were used because of a certain 'key' word or phrase. However, when Jesus or the New Testament authors quote an Old Testament passage, there is a significant difference. Their quotations and applications are inspired. So, when Jesus quotes from Zech. 9, we have a definitive answer. Most may have believed that Zech. 9 refered to someone else, but God Himself tells us that it really refered to Jesus. The example of Mt. 2:3-6 doesn't prove your point at all. Instead, it indicates that the Jewish leaders were expecting a Messiah and saw Micah 5 as a prophesy of the coming Messiah. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128695 | ||
Hi Tim, Like I said, Jesus did fulfill Zech 9, but that is not who God was talking about in Zech.9. Jesus fulfilled (gave full and ulitimate meaning) to the whole OT...that is not what I am talking about. I am simply explaining the original intent of the OT passage. Matthew 2 and Hosea 11 might illuminate my point more clearly. In Hos.11, God clearly was not talking about Jesus. He was talking about the literal community of Israel, whom He brought up out of Egypt. Jesus was also called out of Egypt, so he in effect fulfills this, but God was not talking about Jesus in Hos.11- He was talking about the Hebrew nation whom He saved from Egyptian bondage. In reference to Micah 5, I think that I stated somewhere else that these Messianic hopes of a Priest and King (and Prophet and Great Teacher) were developed in the Inter-Testamental period. Take a look at CD (the Damascus Document) xii.23; CD xix.10-11; CD xx.1ff; 1QS ix.10-11, and also the Testament of the 12 Patriarchs. Zech.4:14, Haggai 2:20ff were seed passages for the messiah theology of the 1st century, which were developed in the Inter-Tesamental period as shown above. This is why we have all of these expected figures in the gospels which were never spoken of in the OT. (cf.Jn.1:19-22) Joel 2:28ff was the seed passage for the prophet theology of the 1st Century, and was developed in the IT period as well. (cf.Jn.4:25) [footnote: I do not consider the IT works to be inspired, but they did have a large influence on the 1st Century view of the Messiah.] chesed |
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5 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | srbaegon | 128702 | ||
Hello chesed, You stated: "Like I said, Jesus did fulfill Zech 9, but that is not who God was talking about in Zech.9." That's bordering on arrogance. You stated that most think this is speaking of Simon Macc. Well, from my vantage point, the passage states that God is promising a just and humble king who will ride into town on a donkey. And when he comes, he will bring absolute peace and will have a dominion that stretches to the ends of the earth. Simon was NEVER that good. Check your history. Steve |
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6 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128708 | ||
That is why Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment, my friend. By the way, I said "most scholars" and not "I" believe that it was Simon. On the other hand, Simon did do what Zechariah 9 says, as recorded in I Macc 13. I certainly agree with you that he was NEVER as good as Jesus. Praise God for that! | ||||||
7 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | srbaegon | 128741 | ||
Hello chesed, We have a problem here. I just finished reading 1 Macc 13 and there is no mention of Simon riding a donkey. And I didn't say Simon was as good as Jesus. I said Simon was not as good as the prophecy, so that it couldn't be about him. Steve |
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8 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128755 | ||
Perhaps you are right. Like I said, I am not the one who believes this. However, consider also II Macc.10 as well about the triumphant purification and rededication of the Jerusalem Temple by Simon Maccabeus after it had been defiled by Antiochus Epiphanes. Also, keep in mind that Jesus seems to be deliberately setting up a literal fulfillment of Zech 9:9. If we say this is an historical account, one could argue that Jesus was showing a 'messianic consciousness' and trying to make sure he fulfilled this because the people (perhaps) thought that it had already been fulfilled. He wanted to be the fulfillment of the IT ideas that has developed in order to demonstrate that he was the Christ. Also, another problem is the Johannine account of this incident clearly specifies that the association of Jesus's entry into Jerusalem with Zech 9:9 was something that occurred in the minds of Jesus's disciples only after his crucifixion/resurrection. John quotes or paraphrases a only a partial version of Zechariah, mentioning only half of the parallelism, and he also eliminates the disciples' role. Another problem here is that the translators of the Septuagint apparently missed the parallelism between Donkey and foal in Zechariah 9 and instead pictured two animals--a donkey and a foal. This translation of in the LXX becomes significant because Matthew used it as a prooftext (used in the nice way) in Matthew 21:2-7, but says that Jesus sends two disciples to fetch a donkey AND a foal 'to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet.' It is also interesting that Mark did not make this mistake, yet Matthew did. Do you see what I am saying? The NT authors (and Jesus) were using a pesher method to make Jesus fulfill these IT ideas of the Messiah. Zechariah 9 was never intended to do this. |
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9 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | Emmaus | 128767 | ||
chesed, I think everyone can agree that Jesus was not only "showing' but actually had a "Messianic consciousness" because He is the Messiah and so it should be not great surprise that He would fulfill Messianic prophecies. Zechariah 9 :9-17, is obviously a Messianic prophecy. I am not sure that the use of the phrase "to make Jesus fulfill these" is a felicitous choice of words. In any case, I think everyone had made their points and positions clear. We are not required to debate until one party is converted by the other. Perhaps we could all move on to another area of discussion? Please! Everyone! Emmaus |
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10 | Christians before Jesus came | Bible general Archive 2 | chesed | 128768 | ||
That would be fine with me... :-) | ||||||