Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 82161 | ||
Greetings Graceful! One quick correction if I may! Heb. 11:3 does not say 'By faith God spoke the worlds into existence'. It says that 'By faith, we believe...'. What is it that we believe? We believe that 'the ages were completed by the Word of God'. I did a quick scan of the Greek and I could not find a single verse where God was said to do anything 'by faith'. If I may also go on to Heb. 11:1, there is nothing in this verse which teachs that faith is a force capable of creating reality. Examine the context. The NIV translates Heb. 11:1 - "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Literally, the Greek says, "And faith is assurance of what is being hoped for and deed of proof of what is not being seen." The words 'assurance' (# 5287) and 'deed' (# 1650) are both used in Greek in contexts dealing with contracts. So, what do they mean in this context? Simply this: Those who act in faith, act as though they have already received the promise. Chapter 11 goes on to list all of those who acted in spite of the fact that they had not yet seen what they hoped for. For instance: By faith, we believe that God created, even though we never saw it - v. 3. By faith, Noah built an ark, even though he had not see the rain - v. 7. By faith, Abraham went when he did not know where he was going - v.8. Verse 13 is one of the key verses in this chapter. Listen to what it says. Heb. 11:13 - "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth." Notice, that it does not say 'By faith, they created the things they wanted'! It says that they did not receive the things promised, yet they acted as though they had. Faith is not a power, but simply a trust or confidence in God. Faith doesn't create reality. Faith ignores reality, and believes God. By this, I don't mean 'positive confession'! ;-) I simply mean that reality doesn't cause me to doubt God's promises even if reality seems to be in opposition to God's promises. My favorite example is Abraham. Abraham didn't go around and speak a position confession, denying that he was too old to have kids. He believe in spite of reality, because God said it. Rom. 4:19 - "Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead?since he was about a hundred years old?and that Sarah?s womb was also dead. 20 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21 being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised." Faith is powerful, but it is not a power. It is our complete and absolute trust that God will do what He has promised. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82240 | ||
Hi Tim "Heb. 11:3 does not say 'By faith God spoke the worlds into existence'." I stand corrected "The words 'assurance' (# 5287) and 'deed' (# 1650) are both used in Greek in contexts dealing with contracts." I stand by my post at this point. I do not have time to address the rest...but would simply point out that all the 'faith hall of fame did indeed see miracles manifest in their lives through faith...But not all such as Abraham. He received wealth, the covenant, His son.... Noah built the ark by faith in God's words of promise and was saved.... These scriptures do not disprove faith produces the reality of the promise, which truly is the foundation of WOF teaching. This is why I just can't get what this debate is really about.... I have to go for today God bless |
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3 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 82248 | ||
Greetings Graceful! Heb. 11:13 does prove that faith doesn't create realities, because it says that though they were living by faith, they did not receive. If WOF is correct, the had to have received. I would encourage you to come back to this post when you have time my friend. You have been arguing that no one wants to actually look at the Scriptures, but I have been more than willing. So, the first question I would ask you to address is simply this: If faith is a power that produces a reality, why does Heb. 11:13 say that they did not receive? Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | gracefull | 82376 | ||
Hi Tim... The early morning is my free time so I came downstairs to discuss this with you this morning. However, I had not written down the ID# and sometime yesterday the thread was restricted so I had difficulty finding your post. I wll try to get a little in this morning, but it may be tomorrow before I can get indepth. You said: "So, the first question I would ask you to address is simply this: If faith is a power that produces a reality, why does Heb. 11:13 say that they did not receive?" I re read Hebres 11 and 12 yesterday on my commute home and a couple of things were highlighted in my thinking. 1. They did receive from their faith... a. Enoch was translated b. Noah was saved and his household He condemned the world and became heir of righteousness. c. Sarah recieved strength to conceive seed and Abraham was 'dead' yet he had the son of promise. (I would consider that a creative miracle) Now verse 13 can't be saying they did not 'receive' but rather that there is something specific they all did not receive while alive... verse 14-19 tells us what that promise was.They 'sought a country...a better country that is heavenly: this is why God is not ashamed to be called their God and has prepared for them a city. Verse 17 says that "by faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Issac: and he had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, (18) Of whom it was said, That in Issac shall thy seed be called: (19)Accounting that God was able to raise him up from the dead; from whence also he had received him in a figure. Verse 33..subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises... Verse 35..Women received their dead raised to life again Faith produces God's reality even after physical death. Verse 40 is the key...God having provided some better thing for, that they without us should not be made perfect(complete). The saints of old did receive many great miracles through faith in God's Words. To me, these scriptures do not state in any way that faith does not produce the reality God desires, but rather is necessary to produce His reality. Faith combined with God's promises produces God's will in the earth. Again substance according to Strong's: that which has foundation, is firm that which has actual existence a substance, real being the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing the steadfastness of mind, firmness, courage, resolution confidence, firm trust, assurance In light of this I reaffirm what Strong's says of this word 'substance'. According to Strong's Hebrews 11:1 the Greek word is translated substance and means 'nature'. And above it is broken out as 'a substance, real being the substantial quality, nature, of a person or thing ' Faith is the substantial quality, naure of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen... Faith produces reality...faith in God's promises produces God's desires in the earth. Got to go, God bless |
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5 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 82385 | ||
Greetings Graceful! I notice that you left out the verses about those who were tortured, flogged, stoned, and sawn in two by faith! ;-) Here is my take on this chapter. I think that the WOF teachers miss out on the real meaning of the chapter because of their attempt to force a definition which does not fit. What do I mean? Of course, there were people who saw great miracles in their lives. But, this is the not focus of the chapter. The focus of the chapter is that they had faith in a promise which they never received. Because of that faith, they were obedient to God, trusted God, took chances for God, and never looked back. Yet, v. 13 and v. 39 tells us that they never received the promise in this life. Here is the difference I see between Biblical faith and WOF faith. Biblical faith is God centered. Biblical faith says I trust God no matter what the circumstances. Even if I must suffer for Him, I will do so because I know that He is faithful and I trust Him. This kind of faith lasts regardless of the circumstances. WOF faith is man centered. WOF faith seeks what man wants. WOF faith fails in the promise is not received. I have seen this firsthand in the lives of families who had bought into this particular teaching. But, because of the forced meaning, WOF teachers never seem to get the real meaning of Heb. 11. The context of Heb. 11 is not, 'How to get things from God'. Rather, the context is, 'How to live for God'. Look at the verses leading up to chapter 11. Heb. 10:38 - "But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him.' 39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved." These were people who were commended for trusting God and living obediently for Him, even though they never received the promise in this life. Some had great victories, but many were put to death and suffered greatly. But, they all pressed on because, by faith, the promise was more real than reality. It is a subtle but profound difference. Now, the reason I disagree about faith producing reality is simple. Look at the tenses of the verbs in Heb. 11:1. 'Hoped for' and 'not seen' are both Present, Passive, Participles. The verse is not saying that we hope for something and then get it by faith. It is saying that those things that we are hoping for and not seeing are as real as if a contract has been signed. We haven't received them yet, nor do we see them, but we will receive the promise at some point. But, like those in Heb. 11, we may not receive it even in this life. Well, I have to go my friend! I look forward to hearing from you more. Let me encourage you to pray about this subtle difference. I believe that God answers prayer. I believe that God heals. I believe that God would do much more if we would ask Him to do so. But, I also know from both Scripture and experience that true faith is the faith that trusts God even when life doesn't go the way you want. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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6 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | Earnest | 82456 | ||
Tim, You are RIGHT about the subtle difference! And yes, you are hitting on the very problem why so many fall... when things don't go "their" way. I still do not believe that WOF teachers teach this. There is much to the gospel... and a well-balanced diet is necessary. However, once the foundations are laid why not press in to greater experiences. There's no set formula, and most of the WOF teachers have experienced the so-called "negatives" that God uses to build a vessel of honour. They just do not preach (long) about it. Occasionally they will mention briefly some hard lesson. That's probably the difficulty. However, I would add that God Himself never tells us the hard stuff. i.e. what I mean is that the prophetic is for edification, and what usually brings comfort is the knowledge that things will improve. If we have not hope we are miserable, AND if we hope ONLY in this life we are of all men MOST miserable. So whether your results ARE HERE AND NOW or in the SWEET BY AND BY... we are all living in HOPE! I personally believe that Faith in GOD and bringing His Kingdom in the earth is for NOW! If I fail I won't fall! If I don't SUCCEED... it won't be because I did not TRY! Better to try and fail, than not try and succeed! :-) |
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7 | What is the "Force of Faith"? | Bible general Archive 1 | Morant61 | 82460 | ||
Greetings Earnest! That is definitely one thing we agree on my friend! We serve a God who is able to keep that which which we have committed unto Him. With Him, we will persevere. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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