Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Can we agree? A case of agreement? | 1 John 5:8 | Ray | 119211 | ||
1 John 5:8, NASB, "For there are three that bear witness, the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." 1 John 5:8, NKJ, "And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one." 1 John 5:8, KJ, "And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." Question: Should these three agree in "case" as well? In other words, which interpretation is correct: Spirit or spirit? Upper or lower case? From the heart, Ray |
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2 | Can we agree? A case of agreement? | 1 John 5:8 | Rowdy | 119246 | ||
First of all, I have to say, I'm not sure how productive this discussion is, but I'll comment for what it's worth. It seems to me that whenever the Bible talks about THE Spirit, it's talking about one of the Godhead so I'm naturally inclined toward capitalizing the word as in the first two versions. The only other kind of spirit that I would understand the Bible might mention would be for example the spirit of man. In that case, it should never be capitalized as it is never meant to be Godly in our basic nature. In your opinion, is there yet another or a 3rd kind of spirit in the Bible? If so, what are your conditions for capitalizing or not capitalizing it? So, I'll let you go back to counting the tally of the citations of spirit in God's Word. But tell me, what is all this going to do for you when you get finished with that tally? I pray for God's blessings on you. --Rowdy |
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3 | Can we agree? A case of agreement? | 1 John 5:8 | Ray | 119257 | ||
Hi Rowdy, It is appropriate that you mention THE Spirit. The word "the" in the Greek is often understood in our translations. For instance there is no "THE" in Ephesians 5:18, "...but be filled with [the] Spirit." Does that mean that we should be filled with spirit? Consider that before you answer. 1 John 5:8 has the Spirit [Or, spirit], the water, and the blood. Those occurances of "the" are in the Greek; but that doesn't mean that the next word should be the Water [note the capitalization], and the Blood, or even the Truth in verse 7. So I would not capitalize Water and Blood so that the cases agree with Spirit. That would not be appropriate. 1) As an aside, the word "Godly" is another word to consider for determining lower or upper case translation/interpretation. 2 Corinthians 7:10, "For behold what earnestness this very thing, this godly sorrow, has produced in you:..." [Or Lit. sorrow according to God], margin note in the NASB. 2) However, I would understand from your post that you do not see the need for the words "spirit, water, and blood" to be in the same case in order to be in agreement. From the heart, Ray |
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4 | Can we agree? A case of agreement? | 1 John 5:8 | Rowdy | 119274 | ||
It seems to me that the most important thing that should be discussed when considering such topics is "What did the originating authors actually intend to say?" Hopefully, that kind of thinking is uppermost in all good, thorough and honest interpreters as they consider God's Word in rendering a new translation or updating one. As I said in my initial post, it still seems to me the Bible discusses two basic types of spirit: 1) His Spirit or 2) our spirit. That's because His priority is that He wants us to come Home to Him in Heaven instead of going home to the devil or hell which has been prepared for ALL those who refuse to believe AND obey His commands. Did you come up with another type of spirit? I don't see it in your response herewith. I await your reply, dear friend. Thanks for some interesting discussion and God bless. --Rowdy |
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5 | Can we agree? A case of agreement? | 1 John 5:8 | Ray | 119363 | ||
Hi Rowdy, Sorry, but I am just now looking at my email. It has been a busy week at my home as my one and only graduated from college today. Rejoice with us.:) 1) You wrote of "two basic types of spirit: 1) His Spirit or 2) our spirit." I agree wholeheartedly with your agreement of cases for we should indeed capitalize Deity and leave our spirit in lower case. But if you would say that God does not have a spirit I would disagree with that. For Jesus gave up His spirit when He breathed His last. God also breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath [sic] of life. John 3:8 talks about the wind or the spirit from God. For Ezekiel 36:26,27 I don't know if the spirit occurances there should agree in case or not. John 3:11, NASB, "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony." John 3:11, NKJ, "Most assuredly I say to you, We speak what we know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness." I go with the NKJ for that verse. Can you see the possibility of the spirit and the Spirit as determining a plural of "Our witness"? 1) Certainly the witness of our spirit is worthwhile but the the witness of God is greater. My witness as a man in agreement with the Scriptures, (I believe), is that the understanding should be-- that the authors intended to say-- "For there are three that bear witness, the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." 1 John 5:9, "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for the witness of God is this, that He has borne witness concerning His Son." What is His witness? That Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 5:6, "This is the One [sic] who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood." And the [One], the Spirit, is the truth. From the heart, Ray |
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6 | Can we agree? A case of agreement? | 1 John 5:8 | Rowdy | 119412 | ||
Ray: But if you would say that God does not have a spirit I would disagree with that. For Jesus gave up His spirit when He breathed His last. God also breathed into Adam's nostrils the breath [sic] of life. John 3:8 talks about the wind or the spirit from God. Rich: I must emphatically insist that God's Word does certainly state that His Spirit not only exists but He longs for our return, ALL mankind. He longs for this but He knows it won't happen for everyone. As a matter of fact, the Bible pictures only a remnant or a minority will make it to Heaven as cited in Matt 7:13. Ray: For Ezekiel 36:26,27 I don't know if the spirit occurances there should agree in case or not. Rich: I must admit, I don't know for certain. I see your puzzlement. A person could argue either Pro or Con. John 3:11, NASB, "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony." John 3:11, NKJ, "Most assuredly I say to you, We speak what we know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness." Ray: I go with the NKJ for that verse. Can you see the possibility of the spirit and the Spirit as determining a plural of "Our witness"? Rich: I would have side with you on this choice. Here Jesus is speaking and is clearly referring to Himself and the Godhead in general. Ray: 1) Certainly the witness of our spirit is worthwhile but the the witness of God is greater. My witness as a man in agreement with the Scriptures, (I believe), is that the understanding should be-- that the authors intended to say-- "For there are three that bear witness, the spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." 1 John 5:9, "If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for the witness of God is this, that He has borne witness concerning His Son." Ray: What is His witness? That Jesus is the Son of God. 1 John 5:6, "This is the One [sic] who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood." And the [One], the Spirit, is the truth. Rich: In this case, one must go with the context and decide in favor of the deity of the Spirit. The part I have difficulty in comprehending is the blood and water's interaction in this scenario. The only water of any value in the NT is that of the baptism. The only blood of any significance in the NT is that of Jesus Christ. So my question to you: Should the blood and water in this verse be capitalized, indicating their deity? I've got to summarize this whole discussion by asking or mentioning one thing. I say question as I'm not sure. (Please correct me, you Greek scholars, if you see fit to do so.) But if I recall correctly, the Greek language in the first century DID NOT provide for upper case or lower case of letters. I guess they didn't see a need to address this concept of deity in their written language upon discussing their many gods. Thus we as modern Bible students are left with the task of interpreting what the authors really intended. Again, almost with the risk of repeating myself to nausium, in my mind, the Bible presents two kinds of spirit: 1) God's Spirit of the Godhead 2) spirit of man which might. Also, you didn't address my other question: Do you see room in God's Word for yet a third kind of spirit? What would be your scripture in support thereof? God bless. --Rowdy |
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