Results 1 - 3 of 3
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Election, Summary. | 1 Pet 1:2 | Makarios | 7879 | ||
You're welcome, Sam! Thank you for your response. I do not see the 'contradiction' and I will try to explain that. You are correct when you say "there isn't a single verse in the entire Bible that clearly and unambiguously states that God foresaw anyone's alleged "free-will" decision and then on that basis elected (chose) to save us." I agree with this sentence. I think that the confusion rests between distinguishing election and salvation. Election is entirely left up to God's will, and for us to speculate on who, why, when or what is to speculate on something that is totally beyond our capacity to understand. Man cannot determine who has or will be 'elected', and man cannot change God's will in any way, since God's will was set and in place before the foundations of the earth were set, and God does not change. Election is totally up to God, and totally under His control. This supports and affirms my point that man's choosing is not the cause and basis for election. In no way does man have any input whatsoever on election. God is totally in control. When I speak of salvation, man makes a conscious choice to heed the calling of God. I am trying not to confuse or mix up election with salvation here. God in His sovereignty already knows each and every decision that we will make in our lifetimes. I believe that the issue of 'salvation' is where we differ in our points of view. God's calling is to everyone, the world at large, that they may be saved by knowing His Son. But even though people may 'hear' this call, not everyone will accept or follow this calling of God (Matt. 19:16-26). Election is something that man cannot touch, but salvation is something that man can act upon, by heeding the call of God and becoming children in the faith. This is what I meant when I stated that 'God elected people (before the beginning of the world) to salvation who He foreknew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faith'.. In no way am I saying that God is acting (or changing) as a result of man's choice. God doesn't change. However, God knows in His sovereignty who will heed his call. It is not for you or me to determine who is elected or not. This is entirely up to God. But it is 'up to us' to make the conscious choice and act of calling upon the name of our Lord, since whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. So this is what I meant. Sam, I believe that you and I, though we both may believe in election, have different views about salvation, and I believe that this is where we may confuse each other and differ. But the doctrine of election is sound, and is something that man cannot tamper with. I think that you would agree with me at least on that. Thanks, Nolan |
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2 | Election, Summary. | 1 Pet 1:2 | reformedreader | 7930 | ||
Nolan, Thank you for your response and explanation. May we continue with a need for more clarification and explanation? Who is it that is making this conscious choice? Is it the unbeliever or the believer? If it is the unbeliever, then his will is not free to make a conscious choice. And if his salvation is dependent upon his choice, then election cannot be separated from his choice and his ability to make that choice. This is where I see a contradiction. If God elects to salvation based only upon His own good pleasure, then the unbeliever’s choice both doesn’t exist and would be irrelevant if it did. Now, I do believe the believer makes a conscious “response” to God’s calling but his response is not a decision to receive or reject God’s calling but, rather, as a result of God’s calling. As stated before, Christ said whomever the Father calls, He (Christ) will raise that person to eternal life on the last day. If the Father calls all humans, then all humans will be raised to eternal life on the last day. And we both know that is not true that all humans will be raised to eternal life on the last day and we both know that choosing to be saved is not a condition our Lord placed in John 6:44. God’s foreknowledge of our actions (mental or physical) has no bearing on His electing us to salvation prior to our actions. That would be the contradiction. God elects solely on the basis of His own desire to please Himself. That is the doctrine of election. Salvation is the result of election. The two cannot be separated. We cannot have a doctrine for election and a different doctrine for salvation. They are as inseparable as the Trinity itself. God does not elect anyone on the basis of a foreseeable action on the part of man. If that were true, then God’s election is based on the actions of man and not on God’s own pleasure. Nolan, you are saying (even if unintentionally) that God acts upon the unbeliever’s action by your statement, “God elected people (before the beginning of the world) to salvation who He foreknew would of their own free will believe in Christ and persevere in the faith”. First, there is nothing in Eph. 1:4 that says anything at all about choosing to be saved as part of having been elected since before the foundation of the world. Second, there is nothing in the entire New Testament that says anything about salvation being the result of the unbeliever choosing to be saved. It were so, that action contradicts God electing to salvation on the basis of His own pleasure. You are saying that God elects to save because He knows who will use their free will to choose to be saved. So, if it is on the basis of the unbeliever’s free will choosing that God saves and since salvation is the result of election, it is only the natural course of this view to say that God elects to salvation on the basis of what He foresees the unbeliever doing. Can you show me where any scripture says anything at all about the unbeliever making choices in order to be saved. Again, you cannot separate election from salvation. My view of election to salvation is no different than my view on salvation by election. We simply cannot create antithetical views of election and salvation and I do agree that the doctrine of election is firmly entrenched in nothing but the personal pleasure of God. Since we both agree on that, I fail to see why you do not view salvation as the natural result of election instead of the result of the unbeliever’s actions. Sam Hughey |
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3 | Election, Summary. | 1 Pet 1:2 | Makarios | 8074 | ||
Hello again Sam, we can continue, but probably so to the collective chagrin of the Forum as a whole.. You have brought up some good points here and prompted the asking of certain questions that would prove vital to coming to a mutual understanding of the relationship between election and salvation. Everyone starts out as an unbeliever, and the unbeliever makes a decision to respond to the calling of God. A person cannot be a 'believer' (or disciple) without first responding to God's call (Matt. 4:18-22). But in response to this, you say from your previous message, "If it is the unbeliever, then his will is not free to make a conscious choice." How do you come to the conclusion that the will of the unbeliever is not free to make this conscious choice or response to God's calling? Wouldn't this conclusion be in conflict with Matt. 4:18-22 since Peter, Andrew, James and John were not even 'believers' in Christ at the moment when Jesus called them? When a believer responds to the calling of God, then he/she is exercising their faith by obeying the commands of God, and as a result, growing in the faith (Hebrews 11). I also read Scripture as saying that God's call (or invitation) is to everyone to come to repentance and proclaim Him as Lord. I believe that it is possible for a person not to 'respond' to God's invitation (Matt. 19:21-22; compare Luke 14:25 with John 6:66). Are we confusing Christ's general 'invitation' to humanity with His calling? I agree that no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), and the Lord calls His sheep by name (John 10:33) and they hear Him. How do you come to the conclusion that "If the Father calls all humans, then all humans will be raised to eternal life on the last day"? We agree that the Father draws men to Christ, and that they can only come to Jesus unless the Father draws them. Therefore, those who are 'chosen' by God before the foundation of the world will receive salvation. But I believe that the general 'invitation' is always there. I won't go any further on the 'invitation' since that would get us off of the original topic. I agree that election and salvation are inseparable. That is biblically sound and doctrinally correct, as proven in 1 Peter 1:2 and other Scriptures. I also agree that God does not elect anyone on the basis of a foreseeable action on the part of man. However, I believe that man's 'volition' comes into play when he makes a conscious 'response' to God's calling. If you say that man's 'volition' is besides the point, then what is the point in making any decisions about anything at all? If this is true, then I do not see any significance in man's existence. I see salvation as something that is pursued gladly and consciously, reaching out to God and calling upon His name, forever changing your destiny! This is what brings Him 'great pleasure'! And those who consciously make this kind of response to God's calling are part of the 'elect' (Romans 10:9,13). I believe that salvation and election is inseparably linked, but is salvation really the result of election? Instead of salvation being the result of election, it is solely based on our relationship with Christ- and that alone. It is not the fact that we have been chosen by God, it is the fact that we respond faithfully to His calling. Election is something that is entirely up to God and something that we cannot explain (Romans 11). Also, I am not advocating that we have to 'do' anything in order to be saved, except believe in Jesus and have faith that He will accomplish what He set out to do. We both know and agree that election is not a result of salvation. This view would be entirely unbiblical. But is salvation a result of election? I differ on this point with you, and I am prompted to go back 'to the basics' on salvation to answer that question. I took so long in responding to you because I wanted to take the time to read and study all the Scripture that even mentions the 'elect' or 'election' or God's 'chosen ones'.. So I looked in Strong's Concordance and found all the verses: Is. 42:1, 45:4, 65:9, 65:22; Matt. 24:24,31; Mark 13:22,27; Luke 18:7; Rom. 8:33; Col. 3:12; 1 Tim. 5:21; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:2, 2:6; 2 John 1:1,13; 1 Peter 5:13; Rom. 9:11, 11:5,7,28; 1 Thess. 1:4; 2 Peter 1:10; Matt. 24:22; Mark 13:20; 2 Tim. 2:10.. After reading each and every single verse, I still come to the conclusion of believing in election. But I also come to the conclusion that salvation is in Jesus alone, even though the Father calls those whom He has chosen to have salvation in Jesus. |
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