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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jewish understanding of "Salvation" ? | Deut 7:9 | DocTrinsograce | 168330 | ||
Dear JRM, When I first read Josephus' Discourse on Hades, I noticed the similarities in the story of Divies and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). This shouldn't surprise us; after all, a number of times Jesus used the words of earlier rabbinical teachers such as Hillel. Your question, although of intellectual interest, muddies the water a bit. Josephus was not inspired, nor was Hillel. They may have gotten some things right, but when Christ spoke, it was with authority (Matthew 7:28; Mark 1:22). Note that these passages state that Christ spoke with authority. This isn't about His manner of delivery, rather it has to do with the nature of His speech. Every word of Christ was the very words of God Himself. Thus, we go back to Josephus or Hillel and judge their teachings in the light of the clear, authoritative, necessary, sufficient, complete, inerrant, infallible Word of God. Did they get some things right? Yes, sometimes they did. Notwithstanding, truth always has its origins in God. In Him, Doc |
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2 | Jewish understanding of "Salvation" ? | Deut 7:9 | Just Read Mark | 168374 | ||
Let me explain the relevance of my question. It was NOT to determine the truth about heaven or afterlife. Rather, in was in the context of this whole thread on whether Jews can be "saved." I was just thinking that the Old Testament picture of what "salvation" means is quite concealed, compared to what we find in the new.... So, I was interested to discover Josephus' statements, and how they echo NT scripture, even though Josephus would have held only the OT as scripture. Thank you for pointing out Hillel. I would like to learn more about these things. JRM |
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3 | Jewish understanding of "Salvation" ? | Deut 7:9 | DocTrinsograce | 168381 | ||
Dear JRM, You will get much more out of Paul than you will Hillel. Remember, Paul was trained by Gamaliel, the grandson of Hillel. Gamaliel was considered an even greater Ha-Zaqen than his grandfather. Paul was being groomed to become Rabban. He had every promise of going beyond his teacher. In addition, instead of rooting around in stuff that is merely of man, when you read the Pauline epistles you are reading the eternal truth! :-) A mediocre student of the New Testament has an infinitely broader understanding of truth than the greatest of the Talmudic masters... although, perhaps, it may not sound as exotic to you. :-) In Him, Doc |
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4 | Old Testament Meaning of "Salvation"? | Deut 7:9 | Just Read Mark | 168408 | ||
In no way am I looking for exotic. Rather, this thread (from Robin's original question) has been looking at the promises the Jewish people received from God as part of the covenant. God's Word doesn't fail, so those promises are still in effect... if only the human side of the covenant would hold up (which, of course, we can't do). But --- even if we could --- and here's the question I keep trying to phrase --- was heaven even promised to the Jews? My reading of the OT (help me here) is that there are hints and echoes of afterlife, but nothing like the picture we receive from Jesus, Paul, Peter, or Revelation. So, if left only with an OT definition of "Salvation" --- I think the picture would be very THIS WORLDLY. It would have a "get right with God" (forgiven) aspect, and a "kingdom of God" political aspect (liberation from Egypt and growth in the promised land). It would not, I think, have a Heaven aspect. Except in the typological sense picked up by the New Testament writers. I am trying to understand what the question, "Are faithful Jews Saved" would mean, based on the Old Testament. Your answer, about Josephus, was interesting because it shows the extent that Jewish thought about afterlife had shifted after the last canonical book. To look at Paul's answers, as you have suggested, would answer a different question. |
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5 | Old Testament Meaning of "Salvation"? | Deut 7:9 | DocTrinsograce | 168409 | ||
Dear JRM, Actually the New Testament does answer your question. You are correct in the inference that the "picture" of the OT was incomplete. Nothing in Scripture explicitly says, "Become a Christian so that when you die you'll go to heaven." That kind of evangelism is alien to the gospel as taught by Jesus and the apostles. When the believer dies his heavenly experience -- called in theology the interim state -- is still an unnatural condition. Human beings were never intended to have anything other than a bodily existence. Consequently, the ultimate component of our redemption is resurrection and glorification. I'd posit, therefore, that the Pharisee understood the conclusion of redemption because of their belief in the resurrection, although they were certainly confused about the full scope of God's eternal purpose. Salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. That was Adam's hope, our hope, and the hope of the last of the elect to be saved. The fact that Jesus' atonement occurred at a specific moment in time is neither hear nor there. Remember, Scripture calls Him "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Chronology is a human concern. Remember, as well, that time was created by God. He invades history at the specific moments He chooses. The OT is only comprehensible in the light of the NT. In Him, Doc |
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