Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are faithful Jews saved? | Deut 7:9 | kalos | 168300 | ||
Salvation Without Conversion? 'Q: As God's chosen people, will they (the Jews) all be in heaven? 'A: No, they will not all be in heaven. This is a false doctrine perpetuated by John Hagee and others. 'Why would [Paul] suffer great anguish and wish he were accursed for Israel’s sake if none of them were truly lost? His anguish comes from the realization that many Israelites are not saved.' ____________________ John Hagee "...believes that Jewish people do not need to be saved, since they are under a different covenant" (www.equip.org/free/DE405.htm). ____________________ 'The Bible paints a different picture. The apostle Paul demonstrates that Israel had a responsibility to respond to the Gospel, but rejected it. In Romans 10:19-21, he asks, “Did they [the Jews] fail to hear?” The rhetorical answer is “no.” Paul relates that, as light and darkness are understood by all, so the gospel has been made known to all the Jews (cf. Acts 17:6; 21:28). He continues, “Did they fail to understand?” The answer once again is “no.” Since Israel has become disobedient through unbelief (Rom. 11:30), God has delivered the gospel to the Gentiles. 'But God has not entirely rejected Israel — Paul (himself a Jew) is living proof of this (Rom. 11:1). God has preserved a remnant, while the others were hardened as a consequence of their unbelief and trusting in works instead of the righteousness of Christ (Rom. 11:5-7; cf. 9:31-32; 11:20-23). Elsewhere the apostle writes, “. . . by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His [God’s] sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin. . . . for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:20, 23-24, emphasis added). 'To drive the point home, Paul goes on to say, “. . . the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise nullified; . . . it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace” (Rom. 4:13-14, 16). Scripture draws no distinction between Jews and Gentiles on the issue of salvation, which is attained by grace through faith alone in Christ, “apart from works of the law” (3:28; cf. vv. 21-22). 'Paul recognized that the Jews of his day had a misguided zeal that caused them to stumble on this very point (9:31-32; 10:2-4). Why would he suffer great anguish and wish he were accursed for Israel’s sake if none of them were truly lost? His anguish comes from the realization that many Israelites are not saved (Rom. 9:3, 6, 27; 10:1, 9-15; cf. Acts 2:14, 21, 37-39; Rom. 11:14, 17-23). 'The Law, revealed through the Jews, was meant to be “our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor” (Gal. 3:24-25). As the Bible clearly states: “There is neither Jew nor Greek . . . for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (vv. 28-29). To be saved, a person — whether Jew or Gentile — must turn to Christ (5:4-6; cf. John 14:6; Acts 4:12; Rom. 10:9-13)...In writing that the “message of the gospel was from Israel, not to Israel,” Hagee discourages Christians from sharing the Good News with unsaved Jews who, like everyone else, have need of the gospel if they are to spend eternity with God in heaven.' ____________________ To read more, including footnoted references, go to: (www.equip.org/free/DH005.htm). |
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2 | Jewish understanding of "Salvation" ? | Deut 7:9 | Just Read Mark | 168311 | ||
I feel rather ignorant on this. This whole thread is talking about "salvation" as if Jews and Christians have the same idea of that the word means. I see a much clearer picture of "Heaven" in the New Testament than the Old. I know the resurrection of the faithful was a very controversial issue among Jews at the time of Jesus. What, then, is an orthodox Jew's understanding of Heaven, or salvation? |
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3 | Jewish understanding of "Salvation" ? | Deut 7:9 | DocTrinsograce | 168312 | ||
Hi, Robin... I rather think that Flavius Josephus' "Discourse to the Greeks Concerning Hades" does a good job of explaining the orthodox position on life after death during the time of Christ. http://openbibleproject.org/Discourse_to_the_Greek_concerning_Hades In Him, Doc |
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4 | Jewish understanding of "Salvation" ? | Deut 7:9 | Just Read Mark | 168324 | ||
Thanks for the link. A very interesting read. Would you say that the views Josephus put forward were largely shaped by scripture, or by developments in thought through the inter-testimental period? JRM |
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5 | Jewish understanding of "Salvation" ? | Deut 7:9 | DocTrinsograce | 168330 | ||
Dear JRM, When I first read Josephus' Discourse on Hades, I noticed the similarities in the story of Divies and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). This shouldn't surprise us; after all, a number of times Jesus used the words of earlier rabbinical teachers such as Hillel. Your question, although of intellectual interest, muddies the water a bit. Josephus was not inspired, nor was Hillel. They may have gotten some things right, but when Christ spoke, it was with authority (Matthew 7:28; Mark 1:22). Note that these passages state that Christ spoke with authority. This isn't about His manner of delivery, rather it has to do with the nature of His speech. Every word of Christ was the very words of God Himself. Thus, we go back to Josephus or Hillel and judge their teachings in the light of the clear, authoritative, necessary, sufficient, complete, inerrant, infallible Word of God. Did they get some things right? Yes, sometimes they did. Notwithstanding, truth always has its origins in God. In Him, Doc |
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6 | Jewish understanding of "Salvation" ? | Deut 7:9 | Just Read Mark | 168374 | ||
Let me explain the relevance of my question. It was NOT to determine the truth about heaven or afterlife. Rather, in was in the context of this whole thread on whether Jews can be "saved." I was just thinking that the Old Testament picture of what "salvation" means is quite concealed, compared to what we find in the new.... So, I was interested to discover Josephus' statements, and how they echo NT scripture, even though Josephus would have held only the OT as scripture. Thank you for pointing out Hillel. I would like to learn more about these things. JRM |
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7 | Jewish understanding of "Salvation" ? | Deut 7:9 | DocTrinsograce | 168381 | ||
Dear JRM, You will get much more out of Paul than you will Hillel. Remember, Paul was trained by Gamaliel, the grandson of Hillel. Gamaliel was considered an even greater Ha-Zaqen than his grandfather. Paul was being groomed to become Rabban. He had every promise of going beyond his teacher. In addition, instead of rooting around in stuff that is merely of man, when you read the Pauline epistles you are reading the eternal truth! :-) A mediocre student of the New Testament has an infinitely broader understanding of truth than the greatest of the Talmudic masters... although, perhaps, it may not sound as exotic to you. :-) In Him, Doc |
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8 | Old Testament Meaning of "Salvation"? | Deut 7:9 | Just Read Mark | 168408 | ||
In no way am I looking for exotic. Rather, this thread (from Robin's original question) has been looking at the promises the Jewish people received from God as part of the covenant. God's Word doesn't fail, so those promises are still in effect... if only the human side of the covenant would hold up (which, of course, we can't do). But --- even if we could --- and here's the question I keep trying to phrase --- was heaven even promised to the Jews? My reading of the OT (help me here) is that there are hints and echoes of afterlife, but nothing like the picture we receive from Jesus, Paul, Peter, or Revelation. So, if left only with an OT definition of "Salvation" --- I think the picture would be very THIS WORLDLY. It would have a "get right with God" (forgiven) aspect, and a "kingdom of God" political aspect (liberation from Egypt and growth in the promised land). It would not, I think, have a Heaven aspect. Except in the typological sense picked up by the New Testament writers. I am trying to understand what the question, "Are faithful Jews Saved" would mean, based on the Old Testament. Your answer, about Josephus, was interesting because it shows the extent that Jewish thought about afterlife had shifted after the last canonical book. To look at Paul's answers, as you have suggested, would answer a different question. |
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9 | Old Testament Meaning of "Salvation"? | Deut 7:9 | DocTrinsograce | 168409 | ||
Dear JRM, Actually the New Testament does answer your question. You are correct in the inference that the "picture" of the OT was incomplete. Nothing in Scripture explicitly says, "Become a Christian so that when you die you'll go to heaven." That kind of evangelism is alien to the gospel as taught by Jesus and the apostles. When the believer dies his heavenly experience -- called in theology the interim state -- is still an unnatural condition. Human beings were never intended to have anything other than a bodily existence. Consequently, the ultimate component of our redemption is resurrection and glorification. I'd posit, therefore, that the Pharisee understood the conclusion of redemption because of their belief in the resurrection, although they were certainly confused about the full scope of God's eternal purpose. Salvation only comes through Jesus Christ. That was Adam's hope, our hope, and the hope of the last of the elect to be saved. The fact that Jesus' atonement occurred at a specific moment in time is neither hear nor there. Remember, Scripture calls Him "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Chronology is a human concern. Remember, as well, that time was created by God. He invades history at the specific moments He chooses. The OT is only comprehensible in the light of the NT. In Him, Doc |
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