Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The Restrainer - Revisited! | 2 Thess 2:7 | Robert Nicholson | 35239 | ||
Dear listener: I know that there are disagreements as to the one of Rev. 9:1. Whoever this is he is given that "key to the bottomless pit" which belongs to Christ according to Rev. 9:1. It is also significant to read the marginal reading of Rev. 9 V1 "I saw a star "fallen" from heaven until earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit" Rev. 9:1 I would suggest that this could relate back to Isaiah 14:12 regarding the fall of Satan (lucifer) as testified by our Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 10:18. These trumpet judgements provide us with the judgment of God upon those who have hardened themselves against him. It would appear that God is using Satan to opening the bottomless pit and to release destruction never known to mankind. This bottomless pit however, is where Satan himself will be imprisioned for 1000 years. Rev. 20:1 In our present age those who have been redeemed have been given power over Satan. "greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world." 1 John 4:4. Who is he who hindereth the attack of the lawless one upon this earth? It would appear that it is he who has the ultimate power, our Lord Jesus Christ himself. All the events which shall happen hereafter are in his control. Is it the church? We know that "God hath not appointed us to wrath" 1 Thess. 4:9 The Lord Jesus took the wrath of God which should of been ours upon his own body on the tree. In 2 Thess. the church was being troubled with false information which informed them that they were going to suffer the "day of the Lord" It is interesting to note that in Rev.3 which covers the church age that in chapter 4 we see a door opened in heaven and the call is "come up hither" From this point on the church is always mentioned in a heavenly sense and is removed before the judgment on the earth begins. I am not a knee slapping disciple of Lehay and Co. , but I believe that the coming of Christ is seen from two aspects: a) for his people 1 Thess. 4 and with his people 2 Thess. 1. I believe that in Rev. we see an earthly company saved out of the great tribulation which includes Israel and Gentile nations who have not heard the gospel. Rev. 7 I am open to other ideas. In Christ Robert |
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2 | The Restrainer - Revisited! | 2 Thess 2:7 | Listener | 35370 | ||
Robert, Regarding the issue of Christ coming "for His saints, then with His saints". I do not find a second coming, then a third coming, described anywhere in scripture. The second coming is clearly stated: Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. But I find no mention of a third coming. What do you make of the following passage? 6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Doesn't this verse indicate that those suffering persecution will get relief when Jesus is revealed in flaming fire, taking vengeance on the wicked? This doesn't seem to fit a second, then third return of Christ. Also, the passage you cited regarding the "for His saints" return, seems to me to portay an audible, visible return in the clouds, rather than the secret, mystery rapture portayed by Lahaye, Inc. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. There is additional info on this topic at www.signministries.org but IMHO they do a better job of refuting the pre-trib position than defending their own (pre-wrath) position. I have a couple of other problems with the pre-wrath position. That interpretation seems to equate "not appointed to wrath" with "not appointed to persecution". The antichrist will "wear out the saints" for 3.5 years (Dan 7:25, Rev 13:7-10). To say the "not appointed to wrath" promise applies to us but not to the "tribulation saints" is inconsistent. Will we be feasting at the marriage supper of the Lamb while our brethren in the faith are being killed for their testimony about Jesus? Revelation 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Certainly, no believer will suffer the wrath of God, but we may need to endure the wrath of evil, as have all our brethren in the faith before us. Heb 11:32-40, Rev 1:9 2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. These are some of the main issues I have with the "for His saints" then "with His saints" scenario. If you know of a specific passage which supports the second, then third coming of Jesus I would be interested to see it. Thanks, Listener |
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3 | The Restrainer - Revisited! | 2 Thess 2:7 | Robert Nicholson | 35434 | ||
HI Listener I do not see a third coming in scripture. However, the wording in 1 Cor. 15 and 1 Thess. 4 have to do with the resurrection of those who have died in Christ and those who are alive and remain. We will be changed (translated) and caught up together to meet the Lord in the air. I would say that it appears that his coming for his saints and with his saints, that both are connected to his second coming to the earth as seen in 2 Thess. 1: 8. How will his second coming unfold. We know that he will come in power and in glory to establish his earthly kingdom at the end of the great tribulation. My thoughts are that he will come to the air, the saints of this dispensation of grace, the church which is his body, the bride will meet him in the air. I do no think that there is a return to heaven, but rather a pause as the bride enters into the personal presence of Christ. He then will descend with his saints in glory and power at his appearing when every eye shall see him. The difficulty presented with this view is what period of time is there between the time the saints meet him in the air and the time when he will continue his descent to the mount of olives? The language of the bride and bridegroom in scripture is based on the ancient Eastern marriage customs. I enjoy this typology as it relates to Christ and the Bride. The example in scripture is that of Isaac and Rebekah In Gen. 24. In Gen 23, Issaac's mother dies. ( a picture of Israel set aside nationally. Gen. 24 The father sends his servant to find a bride for his son. ( a picture of the Holy Spirit bring sinners from all backgrounds to form the bride of Christ) Gen. 25 After his son meets his bride, Abraham takes a new wife. If Abraham is a picture of God this union could typify the restoration of Israel as the wife of Jehovah. Think about the following: The servant a type of the Holy Spirit finds Rebekah. He tells her about his master, and showed her tokes of his riches. The servant was anxious to take her to his master. However, she had to consent"I will go" At this point the betrothal is sealed and she is legally the promised bride for the bridegroom whom she has never seen. As the servant takes her on the journey home he protects her and tells her more of the one whom having not seen we love. Accodding to customs, while the servant is bringing the bride home, the bridegroom is preparing a place of intimacy for he and his bride. The bride is brought to the bridegroom and with the friends the marriage ceremony begins. The groom takes his bride into the specially prepared room for 7 days at which time he will share itimacy with her and show his approval for her by giving her gifts as tokens of his love. After 7 days they leave the room and joint the friends for the marriage supper. I believe that there is a heavenly company the bride who will reign with Christ. The earthly saints saved out of the Great Tribulation will include the remanent of Israel and people from every tonque, kindred, tribe and nation who will go onto enjoy peace on earth under the righteous reign of Christ. I will stop for now. I would be interested in your thoughts. Peace in his Name Robert |
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4 | The Restrainer - Revisited! | 2 Thess 2:7 | Listener | 35565 | ||
Robert, Thanks for all the descriptive info regarding ancient middle-eastern marriage customs. I have a hard time, though, picturing the Lord and the raptured church enjoying seven days/years of intimacy while the tribulation saints are enduring the worst persecution of all time at the hands of the antichrist. Does this seem consistent to you? Thanks, Listener |
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