Results 1 - 13 of 13
|
|
|||||
Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Makarios | 9935 | ||
Greetings A friend of Messiah! This is a question that I have pondered for awhile.. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 seems to state that the antichrist comes first and is revealed, and then the day of the Lord (the rapture, return of Christ [1 Thess. 4:16-17]) happens sometime afterward. But first, before the 'man of lawlessness' is revealed, the 'restrainer' (2 Thess. 2:7 - in my opinion this is the Holy Spirit) must be 'taken out of the way', so that the antichrist can be revealed. And when the day of the Lord occurs, which is when Jesus Christ returns, He will immediately slay the lawless one with the breath of His mouth. (2 Thess. 2:8) 1 Thess. 4:16-17 seems to indicate that the day of the Lord and the rapture are events that happen together at the same time. If this is so, then I could have been wrong in saying in an earlier post that the 'mark of the beast' happened after the rapture. If the rapture takes place on the day of the Lord, and antichrist is destroyed on the day of the Lord, then we can only assume that everyone goes through this 'tribulation' period, where the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way and antichrist comes to the fore to rule and oppress the Christians. If this is so, then the 'mark of the beast' (Rev. 13:16-18) would take place before the rapture. This will obviously be an intense time of persecution for all Christians, but (if this presupposition is true) there will be a remnant of at least a few Christians, since 1 Thess. 4:16-18 tells us that there will be 'some' Christians that are left that have not already been martyred or killed because of their convictions. So to 'condense' what I've said so far, here's the supposed chronology.. 1) Holy Spirit must 'step aside' for antichrist to be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-7). 2) Antichrist rules and persecution intensifies (Rev. 13:16-18). 3) The rapture and the day of the Lord occur (1 Thess. 4:16-18). 4) The Lord slays antichrist on the day of the Lord (2 Thess 2:8). These are just my thoughts, though, and I am open to any suggests or 'correction' here. If you have something to add here that is based upon the Bible, then by all means, let me know. I have not used any other source other than the Bible to come up with the above 'chronology', but I realize that our focus is not on what is going to happen- our focus is on 'being ready' for the Groom's return for His bride, since the Groom will come just like a 'thief in the night'! (1 Thess. 5:2) Nolan |
||||||
2 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | EdB | 22881 | ||
Nolan I do not believe the rapture and the return of Christ (Day of the Lord) are the same. If we read the rapture account in 1 Thess 4 we see the Lord in the air not on earth. In the account of the return of Jesus in Revelation and Zech 14:4, Jesus touches down on earth. Further knowing the job of the Holy Spirit to be a companion and comforter John 16:7 in find it hard to believe God would allow his Children to be here at the hardest time without the Holy Spirit to guide and comfort them. In other words to do it in their own strength. My opinion of the sequence is: 1. Rapture 1 Thess 4. 2. Withdrawal of the Holy Spirit from earth 2 Thess. 2 3. Revealing of the antichrist. 2 Thess. 2 4. Tribulation Matt. 24 Daniel 9:27 Daniel’s 70 week 5. Return of Christ, Jesus splits the mountains. 6. Millennial reign of Christ. The only question I have is does the rapture take place before the Tribulation starts or some where within it. It seems likely that the tribulation will have been started before the 1 Thess 4 takes place. As you so well put it. These are just my thoughts, and I am open to any suggests or 'correction' here. If you have something to add here that is based upon the Bible, then by all means, let me know. I have not used any other source other than the Bible to come up with the above 'chronology', but I realize that our focus is not on what is going to happen- our focus is on 'being ready' for the Groom's return for His bride, since the Groom will come just like a 'thief in the night'! (1 Thess. 5:2) EdB |
||||||
3 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Makarios | 22888 | ||
Greetings Ed! On a 'Side Note', we NOW have both the Amplified and the NASB verses that 'header' our posts!! Thank you Lockman!! Now, back to the subject.. :) The Bible states in 2 Thess. 2:8 "Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming;" which leads me to believe that the rapture and the slaying of antichrist both happen right at the same instant, that the Lord will rapture the church and slay antichrist at about the same time at the second coming of Christ. However, your reference to Zech. 14:4 is interesting, and should be taken into account as well. I have already made a post on what I perceive as some of the 'flaws' in the pre-trib stance this morning as a 'companion' post to the post that I made (also this morning) on some of the flaws in the 'post-trib' stance. It may be interesting to see how you answer some of my interpretations there, and I promise that I will keep an 'open mind'. :-) Thank you for your version of the "chronology".. I cannot claim to have all the answers to eschatology or the 'correct view', but I have posted what I have reasoned out in my own train of thinking.. You have also posted, "The only question I have is does the rapture take place before the Tribulation starts or some where within it. It seems likely that the tribulation will have been started before the 1 Thess 4 takes place." I believe that you have already answered this question, first by saying that you hold to the 'pre-trib' view and second in your chronology.. (In other words, you believe that the rapture takes place right before the Tribulation.) Also, I like your "immunity clause".. :-) (These are just my thoughts...) Blessings to you! Nolan |
||||||
4 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | EdB | 22912 | ||
NolanNolan Your right 2 Thess. 2:8 does say Jesus will defeat the antichrist upon his return but verses 6 and 7 implies there will be a time factor between his revealing and his demise. As for your theory on pre trib and post trib your points are based on your belief that the events in 1 Thess 4 and 2 Thess 2 are the same events. I think not. I see the 1 Thess 4 as what is known as the rapture where Jesus calls home the church and 2 Thess 2 as the Jesus’ Second coming where he establishes his rule here on earth. I can’t say I have any Biblical proof of my position except to say in other places of Scripture where the return of Jesus is described it paints an entirely different picture than that of 1 Thess 4 and to me that must mean we are talking about two different occurrences. Just these little things in 2 Thess 2 where the antichrist will be revealed but, have as I read it, a little time to rule earth before his demise tells me they are two separate events. Then I go back to my original premise that God would not remove His Holy Spirit and let His children to their own devices so I have to believe 1 Thess 4 provides the solution to that problem. I will say I take offense to someone (it wasn’t you) comparing the rapture to the Jehovah Witnesses teaching that Jesus returned in 1914. Jehovah Witnesses believe Jesus returned and He is here today we just can’t see him. The classical view of the rapture is Jesus removing the church before the Day of the Lord when the wrath of God is poured out on the earth. By the way I also believe the day of the Lord is a period of time rather that a literal day. I believe this from revelation where we see God’s wrath poured and there appears to be more than one day’s events. Also I refer to Daniel where he describes his second week with a break in the middle. I think the break starts the revealing of the antichrist and the beginning of God’s wrath or Day of the Lord. As far as pre trib or mid trib your right my sequence does imply I believe pre trib but in fact I’m still on the fence. :-) Once again I cline to the previously stated immunity clause. EdB |
||||||
5 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Makarios | 22990 | ||
Greetings Ed! So do you believe that "the restrainer" spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:7 is Jesus Christ Himself? If you believe this, then how is it that Jesus must be "taken out of the way?" The NKJV believes that this person or restrainer spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:7 is diety also, showing capitalization for 'he' in the verse. Although, I believe that the NKJV is making reference to the Holy Spirit in 2 Thess. 2:7 instead of Christ Himself, since Christ cannot be the One who is taken out of the way: we are discussing His Second Coming! :) The only logical conclusion that I can come to is that the restrainer spoken of in 2 Thess. 2:7 is indeed the Holy Spirit, and the NKJV translators seem to agree. Beyond that, I fail to see how 2 Thess. 2:6 and 7 imply that there is a period of time between the events in 2 Thess. 2:8. The events spoken of in 1 Thess. 4:14-17 are about the rapture, we at least agree on that. Also, it is clear that the events spoken of in 2 Thess. 2 are speaking of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, or the Day of the Lord. However, I presume that you must not believe that the rapture and the Day of the Lord take place on the same day, or your argument would not make any sense. 1 Thess. 4:17 explicitly states that we will "meet the Lord in the air." If we are meeting the Lord in the air at the rapture, then this must also mean that these events are taking place on the Day of the Lord, or during His Second Coming. And 2 Thess. 2:8 says "whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming." So in other words, my conclusion is that Christians are raptured AND the antichrist is put to death on the same day, the Day of the Lord, which is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Of course, my view would say that antichrist would already be revealed and begin Satan's wrath before the rapture occurs. Please tell me if you can find any Biblical support for your view. Thank you for sharing your view with me! I appreciate it, even though I come to a different conclusion, my friend! Your Brother in Christ, Nolan |
||||||
6 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | EdB | 22997 | ||
Nolan I think we agree that the lawless one and the antichrist are one and the same. I think Daniel 9 is also talking about the antichrist and in Daniel 9:27 "And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." I think shows that the antichrist will be revealed and yet function for another 3.5 years. Your right in your presumption that I believe the “day of Lord” or Christ’s return and the “rapture’ are two different things. In the description of the Christ’s return we see Zech. 14:4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. Acts 1:9-11 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. 11They also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." Matthew 24:27 "For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. Which compares differently to 1 Thes. 4:16-17 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. This to me shows they are talking about two different occasions. To me that is Biblical proof to you maybe not in any case that is what I base my belief on and that happens to agree with many theologians of the day. |
||||||
7 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Makarios | 23014 | ||
Greetings Ed! In fact, I believe that the VERY Scriptures that you have cited (Zech. 14:4, Acts 1:9-11, Matthew 24:27) all support my view that these very events, along with the events in 1 Thess. 4:16-17, all occur on the Day of the Lord, or when Jesus Christ returns to earth. If you look at Zechariah 14, you will see that the chapter begins with verse 1, which says, "Behold, the day of the Lord is coming ... For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem".. Since Zechariah 14 is clearly describing the Day of the Lord and the events thereafter, then we must conclude that the Lord will do battle on the earth, the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19), in which His full wrath is unleashed against the whole world of sinners. The Battle of Armageddon takes place AFTER the rapture, since the church will not endure the wrath of God (1 Thess. 5:9). Acts 1:9-11 and Matthew 24:27, also describing the Second Coming or Day of the Lord, is describing how the Lord will return to earth. These verses are both describing the same Day of the Lord, but they are specifically describing His return to earth, not the rapture. The rapture takes place first, and then the Battle of Armageddon follows shortly thereafter, all taking place on the Day of the Lord. So here is my "short chronology" for the events that take place on the Day of the Lord: 1) The Holy Spirit steps aside (2 Thess. 2:7) 2) The antichrist is revealed, the covenant with Israel is agreed upon, the Tribulation begins (Daniel 9:27, 2 Thess. 2:8) 3) Antichrist breaks the covenant with Israel and requires the worship of him alone (Dan. 9:24-27; Matt. 24:15; 2 Thess. 2:3,4), Israel refuses, and the armies of the world gather to annihilate Israel.. 4) Jesus Christ returns and raptures the church (1 Thess. 4:16-17), immediately kills antichrist (2 Thess. 2:8), and returns to earth to the Mount of Olives (Zech. 14:4, Matt. 24:27, Acts 1:9-11), where a national conversion of Israel will occur; accepting Jesus as Messiah (Zech. 12:10-13:1), and the battle of Armageddon is fought (Rev. 19), ending in the Lord's victory. 5) The Millennial Kingdom begins, with Jesus Christ as King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Isaiah 65,66; Rev. 20:4-6). Thank you Ed for supplying me with the Scripture! I'm not sure just how you can argue against the fact that the Bible says that these events take place on the Day of the Lord, or when Christ returns. Blessings to you, Nolan |
||||||
8 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | EdB | 23053 | ||
Nolan I still don't make the connection of the rapture to the Day of the Lord you do. None of these verses say it occurs at the same time and three describe Jesus touching earth the verse I see the rapture in shows Jesus remaining in the clouds. I don't see how you argue against the fact that the Bible shows that these events are seperate and distinct events. blessings to you my brother EdB |
||||||
9 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Makarios | 23084 | ||
Greetings Ed! Zech. 14:4 is preceded by Zech. 14:1, which says, "a day is coming for the Lord" (i.e., the Day of the Lord). Matthew 24:27 says "so will the coming of the Son of Man be." Acts 1:9-11 says, "This Jesus ... will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven." Also describing a 'return' of Jesus Christ to the earth, which is clearly referencing His Second Coming. With that in mind, 1 Thess. 4:15 states, "the coming of the Lord" and 2 Thess. 2:8 says, "by the appearance of His coming." The Lord is only going to have ONE Second Coming? Correct?? I do not see how anyone can overlook the fact that all of these verses are speaking about "the coming of the Lord", which is His Second Coming, also known as the Day of the Lord. The Bible clearly shows that these events all happen on the same timeframe, the same day. Blessings to you, Nolan |
||||||
10 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | EdB | 23092 | ||
Nolan I still see a difference between the coming of the Lord for His church and the Second coming of Jesus. 1 Thess 4 is talking about the Lord coming for his church. The other verses are talking about Jesus coming to reign on earth. I can't imagine why you can't see that also. EdB |
||||||
11 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Makarios | 23096 | ||
Greetings Ed! Hehehe, its too bad that we cannot meet in person to discuss this, my friend! :-) We are both baffled by each other! I'm not sure that I can explain my view more precisely, my friend, so I presume that this difficulty is leading us to an empasse.. I apologize that I could not explain my point of view in a way that you could easily understand it. If you are having problems following my explanations, then it is very possible that others on the Forum are in your shoes. If you would like to continue, then we can, even though I see no point in it if neither one of us can see where the other is coming from.. Blessings to you my friend, Nolan |
||||||
12 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | EdB | 23101 | ||
Nolan Again you assume your view is the right view. A high number of bible scholars agree with my position over yours. I think we are a empasse not because we can't articulate our idea clearly enough. I think we are at an empasse because for whatever reason we see the scriptures to say something different than the other. Yours is an idea that was held for many years, mine is a rather new idea last 200 or so years but is probably the most widely accepted. Of this I'm certain Jesus is Coming back. And when he does one of us is going to say wow was I wrong, but you know what? Being wrong won't bother us because it will be overshadowed by the Glory of the Lord. I live for that Day! I wait for that Day! And if it took agreement between us for that day to happen I would agree with you in a second, however it doesn't and I reserve my right to disagree with you on this. Besides just think how much fun one of us will have being able to kiddingly say to the other in heaven nay nay I was right! One Day together with the Lord EdB |
||||||
13 | anti-christ revealed before rapture? | 2 Thess 2:3 | Makarios | 23102 | ||
Greetings Ed! Really, there is no need to assume that mine is the 'correct' view if you hold a different perspective, since eschatology is entirely debatable altogether, my friend! Either way, we can be certain that Jesus is coming back, which is infinitely more important than the chronology of events, and what we are in fact looking forward to! I live for that Day as well my friend! Blessings to you, Nolan |
||||||