Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Automatic Holy Spirit? | Eph 1:13 | charis | 27423 | ||
Dear Nolan and Hank, Greetings in Jesus' name! Friends, I cannot help but agree with you that there is evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit in our lives that leads to salvation. Otherwise, who would receive 'credit' for our justification? However, I still do not see this as a synonymous and synchronous 'done deal.' There is too much empirical evidence that many of those who are touched by the Lord to confess Christ are not yet partakers of the gifts and the fruit of the Holy Spirit. While there are those that have deep conviction and faith in God from 'moment one,' there are just as many (more?) that struggle with literally every step in their walk with the Lord Jesus. They manifest little or no evidence of what the Bible describes as the fruit of the Spirit. Some battle for years until a 'breakthrough,' some gradually 'clean up their act,' some are in and out of church all their lives, and some walk away and return to their physical point of origin. Yet many of these continue to lean on the everlasting arms of Jesus! Are they saved? I cannot deny their salvation! Are they filled with the Holy Spirit, and immersed in Him? It would be hard to prove! After several years ministering to the homeless, the mentally-challenged, the elderly, and the infirm, then coming to a heathen nation and dealing with social hostility and anti-Christian bigotry, I cannot see this doctrine as clear-cut as you might. I would either have to deny salvation to the weak (little faith means no faith?) or proclaim a glorious relationship with God that had no evidence whatsoever. Please understand that I am NOT saying (as some Pentecostals would) that the indwelling or baptism of the Holy Spirit is completely separate from salvation, and that certain external signs or rites are necessary for salvation (i.e. tongues or water baptism). I am simply saying that I do not see it as synonymous and synchronous, that God's sense of time is different from our own. Well, that's it for me. Blessings and love to you in Christ Jesus, charis |
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2 | Automatic Holy Spirit? | Eph 1:13 | Reformer Joe | 27426 | ||
Charis: I am a little confused by your post. I agree that faith and baptism in the Holy Spirit are not the same thing. However, you stated bith that it NOT separate from salvation and then say that it is not synchronous. If it does not occur at the same time as we put our trust in Christ alone, how can we say it is not separate? Please clarify. Thanks! --Joe! |
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3 | Automatic Holy Spirit? | Eph 1:13 | charis | 27473 | ||
Dear Joe! Greetings in the name of Jesus! My friend, I am afraid that what you ask is like asking to clarify our entire salvation experience in absolute, concrete terms. I don't think it is possible, though some are convinced that they have 'worked it all out.' You agree that they are not synonymous, but that they are both integral parts of a whole salvation experience, right? (Much like other mysteries of the Gospel, i.e. the Tri-Une God) At least, I believe that is a fair representation. Might I add to that 'whole' experience, Justification, Sanctification, Regeneration, Conversion, Repentance, Conviction, Final Judgment, Eternal Reward, and probably a few others I have either forgotten or don't know the correct dogmatic nomenclature. From the vantage of our God in heaven, these would speak of His plan for the salvation of the individual believer. Each of these concepts are Biblical representations of certain aspects of His entire work in our lives. Men have been divided about the 'timeline' of these events, combining them in different 'recipes' and 'formulae' into what often becomes the hallmark of their respective denominations or bent. In my sometimes humble (sometimes confusing?) opinion, a great deal of our quibbling is over the manner in which these 'pieces' fit into the whole. A major problem is that we are locked into an absolute 'time' system, and God is not. So, we are really concerned about synchronous and asynchronous events, while God is not. If I am awake (coffee is in my system, but not yet fully 'active' :-)) and making any sense, maybe the rest will come together. So, My point is that I do not see any 'empirical' evidence that men are regenerated and baptized in the Holy Spirit the moment that they respond to the quickening of the Holy Spirit to confess Christ as Lord and Savior. I find that to claim instantaneous 'whole work' does not fit in with the Biblical encouragement to 'work out your salvation in fear and trembling' (Philippians 2:12) and 'seek after the Holy Spirit' (Luke 11:9-13). Again, vantage and time perception are the issues I am exploring. I pray this was lucid enough to explain my thoughts, even if you don't agree with them. :-) Have a great Christmas, my friend! Blessings and peace in Christ Jesus, charis |
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4 | Automatic Holy Spirit? | Eph 1:13 | Reformer Joe | 27813 | ||
Charis: Thanks for your clarification! I do understand, and I do disagree (respectfully, I hope). Here's one thing: "My point is that I do not see any 'empirical' evidence that men are regenerated and baptized in the Holy Spirit the moment that they respond to the quickening of the Holy Spirit to confess Christ as Lord and Savior." If regeneration is the "new birth," how does one say that the Holy Spirit quickens someone to confess Christ as Lord and Savior and that at the same time they are not "born again"? Also, the seal of the Holy Spirit described in Ephesians 1 seems to be talking about all believers. Those with the view that there is a separate "Holy Spirit baptism" aside from post-Pentecost conversion argue that some people go through their entire lives without experiencing this "second blessing." Does that mean that there are genuine Christians who are never sealed with the Holy Spirit? That is something that I cannot accept in light of Paul's teaching. I agree that "all the work" in our lives is not done at conversion. That mistake is made due to a failure to properly distinguish between justification and sanctification. The question we seem to have is whether baptism in the Holy Spirit is concurrent with our justification that is a reality for all believers, or a step in our sanctification that many never climb in their spiritual growth. That leads us right back to that dreaded "two-tiered" Christianity that is so pervasive in Pentecostal circles: those who seem to manifest the more sensational gifts in the book of Acts are somehow at a "higher level" than those who are merely saved but unbaptized by the Holy Spirit. The biggest problem I have with this point of view is that the people God has used most powerfully in post-Apostolic church history were not individuals who held to this view that there was "something more to be had" after receiving Christ. Most even denied the very modern-day existence of the very gifts that people point to as THE evidence of Holy Spirit baptism. And yet, it was these "incomplete" Christians that God used to preserve His Word and use it to transform the world. --Joe! |
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5 | True disagreement? | Eph 1:13 | charis | 27822 | ||
Dear Joe! Greetings in Jesus' name! Thank you for a very respectful post of disagreement. :-) I am not as worried about those people that have been used 'most powerfully' as I am about the people that have been used the 'least powerfully!' I see many as saints that don't manifest completed saintliness. Are they saved? Or not? I see that the Word describes the baptism of the Holy Spirit as both instantaneous and progressive. I cite the observation of our colleague Tim Moran that the word pledge used in Ephesians 1:14 and 2 Corinthians 1:22 is a promise toward a future completion. You seem to be stating that it must be only one or the other. Friend I agree with you about the 'dreaded' two-tiered Christianity, but I am also wary of 'monomaniacal' dogma. You said that you agree that all the work is not done at conversion. It this progressive sanctification? If so, then I would say that we are more in agreement than you think! :-) Blessings, my brother, to you and yours this good season. May the Lord enrich your ministry to the lost and to the saved. In Christ Jesus, charis |
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6 | True disagreement? | Eph 1:13 | Mommapbs | 28123 | ||
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ! Since I believe there is more agreement among us than disagreement, let's get this unanswered question off the list! We are unified in Christ . . . But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: "When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men." Ephesians 4:7,8 whether we choose to recognize them, use them or not - they are ours! Thanks be to God for His matchless gift in Christ Jesus, our salvation! Blessisngs to you all - Momma |
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