Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Releases from tithing 10 per cent? | 2 Cor 9:7 | jlpangilinan | 22254 | ||
Yes Charis, if somebody can show that it was taught by Jesus Christ I am ready to embrace that teaching again. Do you? I think it is not right to say that if you are not willing to give tithes you not a giver at all. There is a guidelines. "Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." What is wrong with that passages if we are not going to observe that? I am not saying that I am not willing to give, but tithe is not a requirements. Charis, if you want me to agree that tithe is a requirements, just show me a single word that He required His desciple to gave thier tithes to Him. Or you can show me that Jesus Christ made himself as an Example by fulfiling it. If the tithe really is a requirements I know that Jesus Christ will made Himself as an example by doing it. Baptism would you agree is important, Jesus Christ made himself an example when He required himself to be baptized by John. We all would agree that He dont do it for his own salvation (Because He is son of God all things created trough Him and By Him)but to show us how important it is. I think my argument is very simple, just show me those things, and I would agree. Thanks for your time, God bless, Johnny |
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2 | Releases from tithing 10 per cent? | 2 Cor 9:7 | xchngdlife | 22283 | ||
Johnny and fellow believers in Christ, First, I would like to let you know, Johnny, that I agree with you on the issue of tithing. However, one thing I have noticed throughout this whole discussion of tithing is that we are searching for our answer in the old covenant. Let me clarify that statement, in the search for new covenant truth we are using the gospels to clarify a epistle question. Let me ask you a question. Where does the New covenant begin? You might be thinking that I am coming from left field right now. Well, I believe that to tackle the issue we must first establish the dividing line. Here are some scriptures to consider while you develop your answer. Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, Gal 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Luke 22:19 And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the (new covenant) in My blood. Heb 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Heb 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. Heb 9:17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Heb 9:18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood May the Holy Spirit lead you into all truth! Forgiven forever, Michael |
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3 | Releases from tithing 10 per cent? | 2 Cor 9:7 | jlpangilinan | 22410 | ||
Michael, 1. I would like to clarify that when I tried to defend my stand, I am using the new testament. Because I understand that in the Old testament, tithing is Legal and Jewish people that are required to give. 2.Did you propose a new discussion points, I am sorry I could really see the relations of your post in tithing. I agree with you that the new covenant is the "Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the (new covenant) in My blood. " So what is your point? Thanks, Johnny |
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4 | Releases from tithing 10 per cent? | 2 Cor 9:7 | xchngdlife | 22439 | ||
Johnny, My point is that the new covenant does not start with Matthew 1, but in Acts 1. Religious tradition teaches that the new covenant begins in the gospels, however, Jesus seems to disagree acccording to Luke 22:20 "And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the (new covenant) in My blood". His death on the cross where He shed his blood is the beginning of the New agreement. I will address the other verses that I listed below. Gal 4:4 "But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, Gal 4:5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons." Jesus was born under the law and taught the law to unregenerate people. You see they needed to be buried by the law so that they would come to Him for their salvation. (Gal 3:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.) And guess what it is still doing it today. Johnny, Jesus magnified the law by making it perfectly clear that they would never live up to the perfect requirements established by the law. Jesus often raised standards that where impossible to obtain such as, "therefore you are to be perfect, as you heavenly Father is perfect". He was speaking to people who could not have been born again because He had not gone to the cross yet. Heb 9:15 "For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. Heb 9:16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. Heb 9:17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. Heb 9:18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood" See, Christ's death on the cross was the beginning of the new agreement. Before that glorious moment, Jesus had been intensifying the true meaning of the law and proglaimed the solution to man's problem. That problem is our inability to fulfill the requirements of the written code, Jesus lived it perfectly and, as a result, we can now be identified with that perfection through Him. Rom 8:3 "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, Rom 8:4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." In conclusion, when we are looking for new testament truth for the believer, we need to look according to scripture written after the cross. The tithing issue is never discussed after the cross, but as 2 cor 9:7 states we are to give freely and generously and with a smile on our face and hearts. Forgiven forever at the cross, Michael |
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5 | Releases from tithing 10 per cent? | 2 Cor 9:7 | jlpangilinan | 22461 | ||
Michael, Thanks, I but still, I dont see the relation of this to our discussion. What we start is if really the tithes is still the requirements for the Christians. Because my stand is As Christian we are not binding the law of Moses, and law will not justify us: Ac 13:39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Thank you and God Bless, Johnny |
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6 | Releases from tithing 10 per cent? | 2 Cor 9:7 | xchngdlife | 22508 | ||
Johnny, Below is my conclusion in my last post. "In conclusion, when we are looking for new testament truth for the believer, we need to look according to scripture written after the cross. The tithing issue is never discussed after the cross, but as 2 cor 9:7 states we are to give freely and generously and with a smile on our face and hearts." My whole point is summed up in the last line. If you want to prove that tithing is not for the believer then why ask to see if Jesus said that we should do it? This is my point! The new covenant did not begin until after the cross, not at the beginning of the gospels. Therefore, even if those that you are discussing this issue on this site come up with a verse where Jesus teaches us to tithe, we must consider wether it is new covenant or old. Why? Because, again, the cross is the dividing line of the old and the new. As you have stated before---we are not under the law of Moses(old covenant) but under the law of grace(New covenant) Could you in your reponse answer this question? Where do you believe the new covenant begins? Thank you for being patient with me! Forgiven forever, Michael |
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7 | Releases from tithing 10 per cent? | 2 Cor 9:7 | jlpangilinan | 22595 | ||
Michael Before we start this discussion let me put some clarifications. 1. In your own understanding, what is tithe for you. It is a ten percent of your income (net/gross)? 2. Or it is the same as love offering that was mentioned in the new testament. If your answer is it is the 10 ten percent of your income, then I will try to prove (with scriptures supporting it) to you that this teaching is different from the teaching of Jesus Christ. Just to clear my stand, I mentioned it many times when I have a discussion regading tithes, that giving is not wrong but there is no required amount it is not 10 percent or 20 percent of your income, but what porposes of your heart because God love a cheerful giver. In your second question. Again let me ask some clarifications Are you talking of "New Testament" or "NEW COVENANT" To make sure that we both agree, on which we are going to Begin our discussion. TESTAMENT: occurs twelve times in the New Testament (Heb 9:15, etc.) as the rendering of the Gr. diatheke, which is twenty times rendered "covenant" in the Authorized Version, and always so in the Revised Version. The Vulgate translates incorrectly by testamentum, whence the names "Old" and "New Testament," by which we now designate the two sections into which the Bible is divided. COVENANT: a contract or agreement between two parties. In the Old Testament the Hebrew word berith is always thus translated. Berith is derived from a root which means "to cut," and hence a covenant is a "cutting," with reference to the cutting or dividing of animals into two parts, and the contracting parties passing between them, in making a covenant (Ge 15:1-21; Jer 34:18-19). Michael, dont think that I am direct it to the point, I want to make sure that we both agree on which we are going to begin our discussion. Thanks also for your patient. God Bless, Johnny |
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8 | Releases from tithing 10 per cent? | 2 Cor 9:7 | xchngdlife | 22618 | ||
Johnny, Thanks for your response. Let me begin by saying that I believe that we are no longer under law, but under a new dispensation---grace. Furthermore, I do believe tithing was part of the mosaic law and also before the law was established(Abraham tithed to Melchizedek). We are now taught to give freely according to 2 Cor 8-9. So, I believe we are together on the issue of giving. As far as my 2nd question: I understand that the gr word diatheke can be translated as both testament or covenant and are basically synoyms. Either of which could be used in Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 cor. 11:25; 2 cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:8,13; 12:24. All of these passages speak of Gods new plan through Jesus. Now I realize that the Words "New Testament" are on a blank white piece of paper right before Matt. chapter 1. What we must realize is that this is an addition made by our friendly greek scholars to make a division clear. Just as the punctuation, chapters and verses have been submitted into the text for clarity we have labeled Matt. thru Rev. as the New Testament. As a result, many new and older christians have mistakenly concluded that if its in one of the 4 gospels then it must pertain to me as a believer. Nothing could be further from the truth. Have you ever been reading in one of the gospels and trying to interpret it through "grace glasses" and found yourself trying to reconcile what Christ said and what the epistles say. For example, Jesus said, "Matt 6:14- For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. Matt 6:15- But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions. In Eph 4:32 Paul states,"Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you". When you look at these two vs. there is an unmistakable contradiction. One says if you don't forgive then as a result your father will not forgive you. Think about that for a sec, could that be a truth under grace? By no means! We have been forgiven (past tense) and sanctified by that blood. Now on the other side, we have Paul saying that we should forgive others because Christ has forgiven you. This is because we have a true dividing line that seperates these teachings and that is the cross. When I am defending free will giving I do not refer to the gospels because it is the teachings after the cross that I apply to my life. This understanding of law and grace has really free me from confusion and a lack of understanding of who I have become in Christ. Hope this helps, Michael |
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9 | Releases from tithing 10 per cent? | 2 Cor 9:7 | jlpangilinan | 22623 | ||
Michael, You stated this. "When I am defending free will giving I do not refer to the gospels because it is the teachings after the cross that I apply to my life. This understanding of law and grace has really free me from confusion and a lack of understanding of who I have become in Christ." You are right! when are the one who give there is no problem, if you can give more that 10 or 20 percent of your income to God and it is a purposes of you heart God will be happy for that. But what if you are the one who requires you people to give the 10 percent of thier income? We have a problem here. I think we have to know the guidelines of what Jesus want us to do. Mt 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. If we read that passages carefully, Jesus says "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!" because they are the one who are very strick to collect tihes. It is the blame is for them. So if the pastors required people to give 10 percent of their income to the church, then that pastors is the same of that scribes and pharisees! Because we all know that the teaching of Jesus Christ on guidelines of giving are more love offering not to required people to give thier ten percent. You also mentioned this:"I do believe tithing was part of the mosaic law and also before the law was established(Abraham tithed to Melchizedek)." Actually I do believed that if this happened in the time of New Testament it will not tolerated. If we read that verse from Ge 14:17, Ge 14:17 ΒΆ And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale. Ge 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. Ge 14:19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: Ge 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all. I dont think Jesus Christ will tolerated anyone to slaughter any person good or bad and took thier goods and give the tithe to God. Thank you, and God bless, Johnny |
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