Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Lanny, What is your definition of sin? | Rom 6:2 | Reformer Joe | 24080 | ||
What would be an example of "accidental disobedience"? --Joe! |
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2 | Lanny, What is your definition of sin? | Rom 6:2 | Sir Pent | 24088 | ||
Examples of accidental disobedience ............. One of the commandments is to not steal. If you buy something at a store, and then clerk gives you a ten dollar bill in change instead of a one, and you walk a way without realizing it then you stole nine dollars from that store. But you didn't know it so it was accidental. I believe that when you discover what happened that you should take the money back, however, I don't believe that God holds you responsible for that action unless you did it on purpose. Other examples would include taking home the wrong purse or coat from a place because it looked like yours, or driveing 10 miles over the speed limit because your spedometer is broken, etc. |
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3 | Lanny, What is your definition of sin? | Rom 6:2 | Reformer Joe | 24099 | ||
Well, of course those are accidents, but I would also not call that disobedience, either. Disobedience implies a conscious decision not to obey. The examples you gave would be akin to buying a car from someone without knowing it was stolen. A biblical view of sin implies intention, and again I hold that when we are in situations where it is "convenient" to sin, everyone still has those times where s/he gives in to such sins. Also remember that sinfulness is not confined to sinful actions and speech, but even the most fleeting sinful thoughts that pass through our minds. Reading the works of the most prominent figures in church history (e.g. Paul, Augustine, Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon and on and on), we get a clear glimpse at their own consciousness of their personal sin. If these great men of God continue to confess their sinfulness, who are we to declare ourselves to be at a higher state of sancification? --Joe! |
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4 | Lanny, What is your definition of sin? | Rom 6:2 | Sir Pent | 24109 | ||
Clarification .................................... Dear Joe, It seems to me that your reasoning is circular. You say that there is no sin that is unintentional because sin is disobedience and there is no disobedience that is unitentional. If you're going to define the words in that way then that's fine, but it isn't how they are normally defined. Disobedience is defined by the dictionary to mean: refusal or neglect to obey. I would agree that "refusal" requires intent. However, neglect does not. A person who speeds due to an inaccurate spedometer neglected to obey the law, but was unaware of it. This would still be classified as disobedience. However, that is just a argument of semantics. I think that a more important issue with your post was your implication that it is impossible for a Christian today (who is not famous) to be a closer follower of Christ's example than a famous Christian of yesteryear (Paul, Luther, Calvin, etc.) This just doesn't make sense. We would all agree that there has been a progressive revelation of God throughout time. We would all assume that Elijah had a better picture of Christ to follow than Adam, and that the apostle John had a better picture of Christ to follow than Elijah. It is also true that Christians today have resources and materials to complete their picture of Christ that were not available in Augustine's day. And Luther may have been close in His relationship to God, but so are people today. Calvin may have been smart, but not smarter than all the Christians alive today. My point is that we have everything that they had, and more. Therefore, it is not impossible that an 85 year old saint that quitely follows God in her local community could actually lead a more Christ-like life than one of the famous "church fathers". |
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5 | Lanny, What is your definition of sin? | Rom 6:2 | Reformer Joe | 24122 | ||
My reasoning is not circular, but you expressed my point quite well in the first paragraph. I stand by my definition of disobedience and contend that it is a willful neglect to obey in the case of sin. Are you really saying that God would consider it to be sin of any kind if we unknowingly sped due to a faulty speedometer? Come on! God's progressive revelation for his church ended with the completion of the canon of Scripture. We have no more spiritual resources that make us superior in ability to lead a Christlike life than Augustine or anyone else who has access to the complete canon of the Bible. With the Bible, the picture of Christ is complete. Therefore, we do not have a "better picture of Christ to follow" than did the early church fathers or the Reformers. Scripture is absolutely sufficient for all our sanctification by the Spirit of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17). I did not say that it was impossible to lead a more holy life than some of the Reformers. Certainly they had their faults, and the fact is that they admitted them. I was not talking about anyone's "smartness," since sanctification is not directly proportional to intellectual ability. I will continue to emphatically state that anyone who thinks that anyone since Christ has entered a state of continually perfect behavior has a completely deficient grasp of the utter holiness of the conduct of God the Son. Go read the Old Testament. See how much God infinitely detests iniquity: For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; No evil dwells with You. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. --Psalm 5:4-5 I recommend that you do an in-depth study of the holiness of God. Try to take in its scope, its depth, its fear-inspiring intensity (Isaiah 6 is a great example). Then I would hope that you would be a little less eager to claim that it is anywhere in the ballpark of even the best conduct of His saints on earth. --Joe! |
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6 | Lanny, What is your definition of sin? | Rom 6:2 | Sir Pent | 24204 | ||
Contrary View ................................. Dear Joe, In this post, I'll continue the normal pattern of thread debate, that we always seem to use on this forum. I will pick specific things out of your post that I disagree with and try to prove them wrong. However, I will also post a second response seperately that will try a different approach. In that post, I'll try to get to the heart of the issue and deal with it. Let me know which one you think is better. Your last post said that you didn't believe that "God would consider it to be sin of any kind if we unknowingly" did something wrong. However, that happened in the Bible. When Joshua was leading the Israelites in their battles against the Caananites, everything went great against the city of Jericho. But then the next battle was totally different. The Israelites were defeated, and many of them were killed. It turned out that the reason was because one guy in the army had taken some loot from the previous battle against God's command. After that was taken care of, everything went great for the rest of the campaign. The point is that Joshua did not know that the sin had been committed by one of his men. But God still held His people responsible. Many Israelites lost their lives because of a sin they weren't even aware of. Your last post said that "Scripture is absolutely sufficient for all our sanctification by the Spirit of God". I completely agree. However, you also said that "We have no more spiritual resources that make us superior in ability to lead a Christlike life than Augustine". We may or may not have superior personal ability, but we deffinately have superior opportunity. Just because the Bible is "sufficient" for salvation and spiritual growth doesn't mean that it is the only "resource" that can assist in that process. Many people have come to a relationship with God through such unispired "resources" as The Jesus Film, C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, Sheldon's In His Steps, Bunyon's Pilgrim's Progress, etc. And the myriads of commentaries that have been written throughout the ages enable us to quickly learn many different truths from passages of scripture that probably took the writers years to learn on their own. Your last post said that because I believe that Christians could potentially fullfill the Biblical command to be perfect after the example of our Heavenly Father, that I have "a completely deficient grasp of the utter holiness of the conduct of God the Son". I will admit that I do not fully grasp the holiness of God or of Jesus, however, I doubt that you would claim to totally grasp it either. I would also disagree that the limited grasp that I do have of God's holiness is "completely deficient", or even much more incomplete than your grasp is. However, the Bible has lots of instruction on what God requries of us (ie. do justly, love mercy, walk humbly, ten commandments, love God, love our neighbor etc.), and I know people who have not broken any of these requirements recently (to my knowledge). |
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7 | Lanny, What is your definition of sin? | Rom 6:2 | Reformer Joe | 24270 | ||
Who committed the sin, Joshua or Achan? Both felt the consequences of the sin, but who was the guilty (sinful) party? You yourself say that "the sin had been committed by one of his men." Joshua and everyone else were blameless in reference to the sin committed by Achan. And Achan knew what he was doing. You wrote: "Just because the Bible is "sufficient" for salvation and spiritual growth doesn't mean that it is the only "resource" that can assist in that process. Many people have come to a relationship with God through such unispired "resources" as The Jesus Film, C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity, Sheldon's In His Steps, Bunyon's Pilgrim's Progress, etc." I love all of the works you have mentioned which I have experienced personally, but I still hold that they are only successful in that they point people back to the original source material. Another example would be Bible tracts. I utilize them frequently, but I know that it is the Scripture itself which brings a person to a true, saving faith in the central figure of that book. "So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." --Romans 10:17 I would also argue that most people have a very weak idea of what it means to fully and completely love the Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, or to love our neighbor as ourselves. Our sermon this past Sunday was on the Good Samaritan, and I am continually humbled by how I could never come close to acting toward in the same manner toward everyone I come into contact with with the same dedication, selflessness, and follow-through of the Samaritan in Jesus' parable. And beyond that, the merest passing thought of self-righteousness for serving others or the slightest hesitation or reluctance to give completely of ourselves as Christ did for sinners is falling short of loving our neighbor and loving God. That is such a tall order that any attempt to fully grasp it leaves us utterly humbled. Read Romans 5:6-8 and Philippians 2:5-10 to see exactly to what lengths Jesus went to demonstrate how one loves one's neighbor. I have never met anyone like Jesus...nowhere close. And to think that I even approach him in His holiness is the highest form of pride. And the thought that one day my sanctification will be complete and that I will be like Him in his holiness fills me with wonder! You are right: I don't completely grasp God's holiness. What my mind can take in from the pages of Scripture, though, should cause me to fall down on my face before God a good deal more than I do. --Joe! |
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