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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Is God Sovereign in the Church today? | Rom 1:22 | mark d seyler | 168574 | ||
Dear Doc, When the false teacher presents according to what we are taught in the Scripture, we can judge them accordingly. But are you absolutely certain that you can know what another is thinking? I would assert that we often can make a really good guess, and we may be right a lot of the time, but that we, as people, are prone to error, and compound our error with pride. We feel absolutely certain that we know what is the thought of another, that we know what they Really mean, to later find our we are wrong. Has that ever happened to you? If it hasn't, you're doing a lot better than I am, because it has sure happened to me! We can spot the false doctrine, but can we judge the intents of the heart? Sometimes it seems pretty clear, but not always. Again, at least, not to me. God can be sovereign, while allowing another to choose. He can sovereignly designate the choice to another. Please see the Scriptures I referenced. I did read the chapter by Pink, but I was refering to your comment "What Pink is talking about is the redefinition of the sovereignty of God so as to accommodate human choice." Pink appears to be one who denies the validity of those many scriptures that refer to man's choice. If God decrees, sovereignly, that you must decide whether or not you wish to be with Him, this does not intrude on His sovereignity. I might well equally state that many have redefined God's sovereignity in denial of the plain truth of Scripture. The Bible says, in Luke 13:34, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!" Some simple points are made here. Jesus wants to gather Jerusalem's children. Jerusalem would not have it. Jesus did not have what He wanted, because He allowed another to choose. Pink states: To declare that the Creator's original plan has been frustrated by sin, is to dethrone God. Was Jesus' desire to gather the children of Jerusalem together frustrated (disallowed) by the people's choice? You read this passage and tell me. I would ask, did God's original plan include sin? That cannot be. Could God have created in order that sin would occur, so He Real plan could be put in action? No, God is not the Author of sin. So somewhere, you must allow that man chose to sin. And that being true, that God, while still being sovereign, while still being on the throne, while still being all-powerful God, allowed another to make a choice. And that their choice was to sin. And that the sin was not what God wanted. And that God's desire was for something different. But He allowed it, because He allowed another to choose. And He is still sovereign. So I would say that we have not redefined God's sovereignity, but have perhaps commented on Pink's veiw of God's sovereignity. I just do not see where the Bible describes us all to be the puppets we would be required to be if it was true that God pre-made all of our choices for us, even if you do interpose "secondary causes", as if that would actually remove God's responsibility for His actions, just because He acted through an intermediary. Divine Election/Free Will/Divine Election/Free Will The Scriptures teach both. Whack! Whack, whack! (that's the sound of a boot striking a deceased steed!) Whack! So I should end now. Or a couple of posts ago. Love in Christ, Mark |
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2 | Is God Sovereign in the Church today? | Rom 1:22 | DocTrinsograce | 168588 | ||
Dear Brother Mark, You ask, "...are you absolutely certain that you can know what another is thinking?" :-) The topic seems to be drifting. I explained what Pink meant. Now you want to know about absolute certainties regarding specific thoughts in others. I am absolutely certain that men do what they do and say what they say out of the fulness of the heart. Perhaps a few examples are in order for further contemplation: Chuck Smith, John Piper, Jim Bakker, and Sun Myung Moon. Who do you think loves God? A man cannot serve two masters. The master he loves will always ultimately become manifest. By the way, Pink was not writing about judging explicit thoughts. He was talking about what people were *preaching.* Regarding your defense of your theology: Read again Pink's definition of the sovereignty of God. It is the orthodox definition arising out of the Reformation. Your position differs. It's okay, Brother Mark! It doesn't mean that you have to defend your position as differing from Pink's. It certainly doesn't mean that I'm interested in changing your mind. It is simply a historical fact: the Reformers defined sovereignty one way, Brother Mark defines it another way. Nothing to be ashamed of... nothing to worry about... nothing to be argued over. (Indeed, I thought you did an admirable job of expressing your definition.) Now, in the quotes below I am NOT arguing with your position. I'm just citing specific examples that state the orthodox Reformed position on the sovereignty of God. By doing so, you can contrast your definition of sovereignty with that of the Reformers. In Him, Doc "Election is the unchangeable purpose of God whereby, before the foundation of the world, out of the whole human race, which had fallen by its own fault out of its original integrity into sin and perdition, He has, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His will, out of mere grace, chosen in Christ to salvation a definite number of persons, neither better nor more worthy than others, but with them involved in a common misery." --Canons of Dort, Article 7 "God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass (Eph 1:11; Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Heb 6:7); yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, (Jam 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5) nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established (Acts 2:23; 4:27; Matt 17:12; John 19:11). Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions (Acts 15:18; 1 Sam 23:11, 12; Matt 11:21,23); yet has He not decreed anything because He foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions (Romans 9:11, 13, 18)." --Westminster Confession Faith (3:1-2) "It is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things but that He does so always and without exception." --John Piper "In my classes in the seminary, I raise questions like, 'Is God in control of every single molecule in the universe?' When I raise that question, I say, 'The answer to that question will not determine whether you are a Christian or a Moslem, a Calvinist or an Arminian, but it will determine whether you are a theist or an atheist.' Sometimes the students can't see the connection. And I say to them, 'Don't you realize that if there is one molecule in this universe running around loose outside the scope or the sphere of God's divine control and authority and power, then that single maverick molecule may be the grain of sand that changes the entire course of human history, that blocks God from keeping the promises He has made to His people?' It may be that one maverick molecule that will prevent Christ from the consummation of his kingdom. For if there is one maverick molecule, it would mean that God is not sovereign. If God is not sovereign, then God is not God. If there is any element of the universe that is outside of his authority, then He no longer is God over all. In other words, sovereignty belongs to deity. Sovereignty is a natural attribute of the Creator. God owns what He makes, and He rules what He owns." --R. C. Sproul |
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