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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | does one need to be baptised to be saved | John 3:5 | Morant61 | 130280 | ||
Greetings Doc! This is not intended as an argument! I just wanted to defend the position that 'water' could refer to birth. I have often heard this view renounced, but it seems to make good contextual sense in the context. Here is what I have previously written on this issue: ************************************* John 3:5: Concerning this passage, my first observation is that Christian baptism is not mentioned directly anywhere in this passage. In fact, it would be unusual for it to be mentioned, since Christian baptism hasn’t even be instituted at this point. Your assuming that "born of the water" means baptized. However, the context makes it much more likely that "born of the water" is a reference to natural birth in contrast to spiritual birth. Notice the flow of the passage. Jesus says in Jn. 3:3 that no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again. In verse 4, Nicodemus immediately assumes that Jesus must means that we have to re-enter the womb and be physically born again. Verse 5 is Jesus’ attempt to correct Nicodemus’ false assumption. In it, He says that we must be born of water and of Spirit. Is Jesus talking about baptism when He says "born of water" or is He talking about natural birth. I believe the later. Why? Because in verse 6, Jesus directly contrasts physical birth and spiritual birth by stating that "flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." ************************************* I do agree with the main thrust of your post, I just thought that I would throw in my two cents! :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | does one need to be baptised to be saved | John 3:5 | DocTrinsograce | 130375 | ||
Thank you, Tim. It is beneficial to wrestle with the Word along with other believers. I tend to get impatient with opinion spouting, but probably because I tend to do that myself from time to time! But contending over scripture has its own rewards. I appreciate the spirit in which you posed your comments. I'm sure you noted I was speaking broadly, trying to account for the most common orthodox protestant perspective in answering Toeknee's question. Now, switching to my personal perspective (which holds no great authority), I will write on my own behalf, giving account only for my own conclusions: At one time I used the interpretation that you mention. It does, indeed, seem to "flow" (sorry, I like the pun) that way in the rest of the passage. I began to doubt, however, when I realized that if "born of water" is a figure of speech that Christ is using for natural birth, then it stands alone both in scripture and secular writings. Not that this might alone be sufficient to discount the possibility. However, it is sufficient to send a person searching the scripture. I began to suspect it might mean baptism, after all, because of the various passages where the apostles advocated baptism for the newly saved (Acts 2:38, 2:41, 8:12-13, 8:36, 38, 9:18, 10:47-48, 16:15, 33, 18:8, 22:16, Gal 3:27). Jesus is, after all, pretty explicit in Mark 16:16. Nevertheless, as you also suggest, how could Christ be talking about the ordinance of baptism at this point in His ministry? Not that baptism would have been a foreign concept to Nicodemon ben Gorion. Baptism had long been used by Jews as a symbolic cleansing for proselytes. In fact, that was largely the point of John the Baptist -- something not lost upon the Jews -- for by requiring baptism he was stating, "You Jews have disobeyed the Covenant to the extent that you are no longer the children of Abraham, you have become Gentiles to be treated as repenting proselytes!" It was then, however, that I discovered the connection of "living water" between John 4 and Isaiah 12:3. This, in turn, caused me to look at the use of water and washing in scripture and its connection to regeneration. Note the following scriptures: Ephesians 5:26, Titus 3:5, 1 Corinthians 6:11, John 13:10. Finally, I considered Ezekiel 36;25-27, where Ezekiel predicts salvation, bringing the element of water together with the Spirit in this awesome work of God. Albert Barnes (1798-1870) commenting on Matthew 3:11 "By this is clearly intended that the heart must be changed by the agency of the Holy Spirit; that the love of sin must be abandoned; that man must repent of crime and turn to God; that he must renounce all his evil propensities, and give himself to a life of prayer and holiness, of meekness, purity, and benevolence. This great change is in the Scripture ascribed uniformly to the Holy Spirit," Thus, this passage of John 3:5 harmonizes better with the rest of scripture if the water mentioned here, in conjunction with the activity of the Holy Spirit, is speaking of the entire work of regeneration. This would fit also with John 6:6, as John is careful to show us that we are not saved by the will of man, but by the divine will of God, in accordance to His eternal purpose. It also makes wonderful sense when the use of water is taken in context by Nicodemus' activities in the temple. Thank you, Tim, for letting me pontificate. :-) I just have to include the words of this hymn by William Cowper: The Lord proclaims His grace abroad! “Behold, I change your hearts of stone; Each shall renounce his idol-god, And serve, henceforth, the Lord alone. “My grace, a flowing stream, proceeds To wash your filthiness away; Ye shall abhor your former deeds, And learn my statutes to obey. “My truth the great design ensures, I give myself away to you; You shall be mine, I will be yours, Your God unalterably true. “Yet not unsought, or unimplored, The plenteous grace I shall confer; No—your whole hearts shall seek the Lord, I’ll put a praying spirit there. “From the first breath of life divine Down to the last expiring hour, The gracious work shall all be mine, Begun and ended in my power.” |
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3 | does one need to be baptised to be saved | John 3:5 | Morant61 | 130381 | ||
Greetings Doc! Thanks for the response my friend, even if it did include a bad pun! ;-) I have no problem with your interpetation at all. I also would have no problem with seeing the phrase as a reference to physical birth. The only reason I responded was because I have read some commentaries that make it sound as though physical birth is a 'loony' option! :-) But, I think a good case can be made for it from the context. The only position I cannot accept is that the phrase refers to baptism! :-) There simply isn't any reference to baptism in this passage whatsoever. Just as a side note, have you ever wondered why the phrase 'born from above' was translated as 'born again'? :-( I never have figured that one out! Keep up the excellent work, I enjoy both your's and your wife's posts. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | does one need to be baptised to be saved | John 3:5 | DocTrinsograce | 130437 | ||
Hi, Tim... Thank you for the encouragement! I agree with you... this verse is not talking about baptism any more than Luke 17 is talking about the rapture. Sometimes people don't deliberate over a passage, but too quickly take someone else's interpretation. I know because I've done it! :-) I rather suspect the "born again" translation might have had some sort of outside influence. I wonder how the Geneva Bible translated this verse? |
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