Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | John Reformed | 52513 | ||
Dear Hank, Thanks so much for your aid in helping us get to a correct interpretation Hank. I tuly appreciate your input. I sure wish I had paid more attention in High School! Howevever, I would like to explore further why the object of the pronoun "any" must necessarily refer to the universe of men and not the universe of believers. 2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." There are two groups mentioned in chapter 3. The "beloved", whom are also identified to by the pronoun "you". The second group are the "mockers who are identified as "them" in that they are spoken of in the third person (their). Now, if we were to remove the clause " patient toward you (The beloved)" then the pronoun "any" would have to apply to both groups. And if Peter wanted to identify "any" as applying to all men, then why does he use "you" in "patient toward you"? He could have just as easily said "patient toward all". It would appear that he wrote the clause as it is for a pupose. That is, to identfy the group he had in view. Hank, you said: ". Now he follows with this phrase, "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence.".... For "any" and "all" in this construction of Peter's phrasing to be understood as referring to the beloved i.e., believers, is not possible inasmuch as believers stand in no danger of perishing and have already come to repentence." But what of those believers like you and me and Tim. Is it not possible, nay, even likely that that was the reason he said "patient toward you"? Considering the topic is a defense against "mockers" vain accusations regarding His 2nd coming, it makes perfect sense for Peter to comfort and explain to the "beloved" why it is that Jesus has not yet appeared. And he does so by informing them that God is patient and does not wish that any of those ordained to salvation would perish but all to come to repentance. I realize that both sides of the debate can reasonably argue this issue, but because Peter inserts "patient toward you" as a modifier to the rest of the verse I contend that I have the strongest arguement. If you care to comment I would be gratefull Bubba John |
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2 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | Hank | 52517 | ||
John, if you feel that yours is the stronger view in this particularly passage, that's fine with me: you have every right to vent your view. I do believe, however, that in order to arrive at the conclusion you hold on the matter, it is necessary to supplement what the passage actually says with certain presuppositions of one's own that do not seem to be apparent in the text. If a fairly discerning reader who had no theological axe to grind, being wedded neither to the doctrines of Calvinism nor Arminianism, were to read this passage, I doubt that it would ever occur to him to insert phrases of his own making into the text, as for example "of those ordained to salvation" after the word "all" in the phrase "not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence." Furthermore, John, truly I can't find cogent reason to go about mentally inserting the word "elect" after words such as any, all, every, whoever that appear in biblical texts unless it is abolutely, unimpeachably necessary to do it in order to make the passage intelligible, and I know of no passage where this is the case. "All" always means all unless there is a clear sense in the context that it is used in a more restrictive sense, such as meaning only all persons within a clearly defined group or genre, e.g., all Jews, all Romans, all believers, etc. In John 3:16, for instance, since the word "whoever" has no clear restrictions imposed upon its meaning, how then is it possible without corrupting the text to impose any meaning upon it than that since the plain sense of the verse indicates that the Apostle says whoever, chances are he means whoever, nothing more and nothing less?..... So, John, I'll close out my small part of this discussion with the observation that it seems quite worthwhile to sharpen our spiritual saws with other believers, but counter-productive to grind excessively the individual teeth of our saws! --Hank | ||||||
3 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | John Reformed | 52544 | ||
Dear Hank, Please bear with me a bit longer. I want to explain some of the questions you have concerning my reasoning. I would hate for you to think I was merely a thick-headed ideolog. Would you concede that the tradition we adhere to has a strong bearing on how we understand particular verses? I believe it does. When we read 2 Peter 3:9 or John 3:16 for instance we assume whatever we previously learned and believed about that verse to be the correct interpretation. We barely give it a 2nd thought! Lets look at John 3:16 "For God so loved the world...". We understand it as saying "God sooo loved the world...". That is perhaps the most natural way to interpret it. But is it the correct way. Did the Holy Spirit mean that God loved the world so much or is there another possible understanding. I believe there is. The word so is from the greek adverb "houto" which means "in this manner" or "to this extent". "Verse 16 begins with the assertion that God’s love is the basis of His redemptive work in Jesus Christ. God’s love for the world comes to expression in the sending of His unique Son into the world, and in the provision of eternal life for a specific and limited group. The same delineation and particularity that is found in the last phrase of v. 15 is repeated here...The text’s meaning is transparent, though again, the challenge is hearing the text outside of pre-existing traditions. “So” is best understood as “in this manner” or “to this extent” rather than the common “sooooo much.” His love is shown, illustrated, or revealed in His giving of His Son. The Incarnation is an act of grace, but that Incarnation is never seen separately from the purpose of Christ in coming into the world, specifically, providing redemption through faith in Him. Hence, the love of God is demonstrated in the giving of Christ so as to bring about the eternal life of believers." (James White in an Open Letter to Dave Hunt) You may read the entire letter on www.aomin.org I said all of that to say this. If it is an assumption on the part of calvinists to read "the elect" into 2 Peter 3:9, why is it not an assumption for anyone else to read "every single individual" into the same verse. John |
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4 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | Hank | 52550 | ||
John, regardless of how many o's one puts in "so much" in John 3:16, what follows is still "whoever." Regarding your last paragraph, it is a mistake to read anything into Scripture beyond what it says, regardless of who does it, whether Calvinist or Arminian, Arizonian or Arkansan! Over and out. Let's snip off the thread and call it a day, OK? Nice visiting with you, John. --Hank | ||||||