Results 1 - 3 of 3
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | John Reformed | 52338 | ||
Hello Hank, Please read my last post to Tim. You are far more knowledgable in English grammar than I am and I need your opinion. As you know the controversy surrounding 2 Peter 3:9 is focused in the identification of the pronoun "any and adjective "all": ( but is patient toward You, not wishing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance.) Tim and I are agreed that the "you" in the preceeding clause refers to christians. They are his immediate audience. We disagree on the identification of the "any and "all" in the following clause. Tim states:"...we find an unmodified indefinite pronoun which every translation translates as 'any'. This is further defined in the next clause with the adjective 'all'. Unmodified by 'you', 'any' and 'all' refers to each individual grammatically." I do see Tim's point. But believe it is a leap to then identify "any" and "all" as mankind universally. I believe (given the context of the entire book) that "any" and "all" identify christians universally, those (past, present and future) who will not perish but who will have repented before the return of Christ to the Earth. Peter is not dealing directly with salvation in this chapter but with the controversy over the "delay" of Christ's return! 2 Peter 3:9 is used with regularity as a proof verse by arminians to support their doctrine of "free will" as opposed to the calvinistic doctrine of "election". As christians both sides should be more concerned with the correct interpretation of Scripture than they are in defending their doctrines. It is easy for me to sit here and pontificate, it is difficult for me to actually do that which I require of others. Nevertheless, as christians, we must humbly rely on the Spirit to illuminate the eyes of our understanding. The truth is the truth whether it agrees with our doctrines or not. God give us all the grace we need to be faithfull to His Word. Brother John |
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2 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | Hank | 52477 | ||
John, being a Christian who does not claim to be especially under the aegis of Calvinism or Arminianism, but who can see valid arguments on many points by both, I'll be happy to give you a sounding on the verse for what it appears to be saying in the English. Peter's emphasis and main thrust in this series of verses that begin Chapter 3 have virtually nothing to say to the issue of election, but a great deal to say about the Apostle's concern with the latter-day mockers who wax impatient about the Lord's return. Having said in v.8 that God's time table is not our time table -- "one day with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day -- he moves to v.9 and speaks of the Lord's patience with "you." The antecedent of "you" is found in v.1, which is "beloved" who were believers. Now he follows with this phrase, "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence.".... For "any" and "all" in this construction of Peter's phrasing to be understood as referring to the beloved, i.e., believers, is not possible inasmuch as believers stand in no danger of perishing and have already come to repentence. Moreover, if Peter had believers in mind, it is more than likely that he would have constructed his sentence to say so clearly, which he could easily have done simply by inserting the prepositional phrase "of you" after the word "any." But Peter did not do that. Hence, the words "any" and "all" in this instance must indeed be understood to mean persons outside the fold, persons other than the believers who are being generally addressed in the epistle. I can't see any way that the words could be referring to Christians universally or in any particular time frame. John, that's my best stab at what the verse is saying. I'm not trying to refute anyone's views or concur with anyone's views. In fact, at this writing I have not even read Tim's post except for the excerpts you cite in yours. My analysis of this passage is based more heavily on my knowledge of English grammar and syntax, which is only fair, than on my knowledge of systems of theology, which is worse. --Hank | ||||||
3 | Are we ever "worthy" of God's love? | John 3:16 | John Reformed | 52512 | ||
Dear Hank, Thanks so much for your aid in helping us get to a correct interpretation Hank. I tuly appreciate your input. I sure wish I had paid more attention in High School! Howevever, I would like to explore further why the object of the pronoun "any" must necessarily refer to the universe of men and not the universe of believers. 2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." There are two groups mentioned in chapter 3. The "beloved", whom are also identified to by the pronoun "you". The second group are the "mockers who are identified as "them" in that they are spoken of in the third person (their). Now, if we were to remove the clause " patient toward you (The beloved)" then the pronoun "any" would have to apply to both groups. And if Peter wanted to identify "any" as applying to all men, then why does he use "you" in "patient toward you"? He could have just as easily said "patient toward all". It would appear that he wrote the clause as it is for a pupose. That is, to identfy the group he had in view. Hank, you said: ". Now he follows with this phrase, "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentence.".... For "any" and "all" in this construction of Peter's phrasing to be understood as referring to the beloved i.e., believers, is not possible inasmuch as believers stand in no danger of perishing and have already come to repentence." But what of those believers like you and me and Tim. Is it not possible, nay, even likely that that was the reason he said "patient toward you"? Considering the topic is a defense against "mockers" vain accusations regarding His 2nd coming, it makes perfect sense for Peter to comfort and explain to the "beloved" why it is that Jesus has not yet appeared. And he does so by informing them that God is patient and does not wish that any of those ordained to salvation would perish but all to come to repentance. I realize that both sides of the debate can reasonably argue this issue, but because Peter inserts "patient toward you" as a modifier to the rest of the verse I contend that I have the strongest arguement. If you care to comment I would be gratefull Bubba John |
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