Results 1 - 14 of 14
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Who was Jesus asking God to forgive? | Luke 23:34 | Bill Mc | 17189 | ||
Who was Jesus beseeching the Father to forgive? The context seems to suggest that it could be either the people casting lots for Christ's garments or the 'crucifixion party' consisting of the Romans who performed the act, the Jews who demanded it, the onlookers, and the even the sympathetics. There is no record of anyone asking for forgiveness at the crucifixion so why did Christ ask the Father to forgive? Did the Father answer this request? If so, how? Not even the thief asked for forgiveness. He only requested that Christ remember him when the Lord came into His kingdom. So who was forgiven? Is it possible that this was Christ's pronouncement that forgiveness for all mankind was provided for at the cross by His shed blood - Heb 9:22? If so, not everyone has accepted this forgiveness because not everyone 'comes' to the cross. Would this passage and the rest of the Bible support this view? |
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2 | Who was Jesus asking God to forgive? | Luke 23:34 | Searcher56 | 17192 | ||
Bill Mc, I like your referance to Hebrews 9:22. Who is the "them" Jesus is praying for? He is praying for -Judas who betrayed Him. -His other 11 disciples who left Him -Pilate who found Him innocent yet still gave Him up to be crucified. -the soldiers who whipped Him, mocked Him, spit on Him, and nailed Him to the cross. -for us, we don't know what we were doing. "But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" (Rom 5:8). Also, Hebrews 9:22 fits. Some knew, the Jewish leaders. We read in Acts 3:15, "And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses." But, I don't think they knew fully what they were doing. While all are forgiven (John 3:16), each still call on Him to be saved (Rom 10:9-13). The cry is, "Father forgive them..." The prophecy is found in Isaiah 53:12 Jesus never called on His Father to forgive sins. He, himself demonstrated the Had power, while on earth, to forgive sins (Matt 9:2; Luke 7:48). Steve |
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3 | What do you think? | Luke 23:34 | Bill Mc | 17194 | ||
Thanks, Steve. You write, 'Jesus never called on His Father to forgive sins.' But here in this passage (Luke 23:34) He does. So what did you mean? In the instances that you cited where Jesus forgave sins, do you think that He forgave just because He was God (Mark 2:7)? Or do you think He forgave the sins because He knew that He came to be the sacrifice for all sins for all time (Heb 9:15 says that His sacrifice even forgave the sins committed under the first covenant (Law)? | ||||||
4 | What do you think? | Luke 23:34 | Searcher56 | 17209 | ||
Bill Mc, I believe Jesus stopped being God on the cross, because He became sin for us (2Cor 5:21). God is perfect - without sin (Matt 5:48). Jesus was sinless (1Jhn 3:4-5). Also, God is immortal (1Tim 1:17). Up to that point He was God and could forgive sins, without asking the Father. He did know He was the perfect sacrifice for all sins for all time. Remember, Stephen also forgave those who were killing him (Acts 7:60). Steve |
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5 | What do you think? | Luke 23:34 | kalos | 17226 | ||
In His incarnation, Jesus was both true God and true man. And He never for one minute ceased being God. 2 Cor 5:21 "'sin for us.' God the Father, using the principle of imputation, treated Christ as if He were a sinner though He was not, and had Him die as a substitute to pay the penalty for the sins of those who believe in Him. On the cross, He did not become a sinner (as some suggest), but remained as holy as ever. He was treated as if He were guilty of all the sins ever committed by all who would ever believe, though He committed none. The wrath of God was exhausted on Him and the just requirement of God's law met for those for whom He died." (p. 1772, MacArthur Study Bible, Word Publishing, 1997) |
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6 | What do you think? | Luke 23:34 | Bill Mc | 17244 | ||
Dear kalos, please see my subsequent post to Steve. I don't agree with MacArthur here (John does write many good explanations, though). Christ DID bear all our sins in His body - 1 Pet 2:24, Heb 10:5,10. I respectfully submit that God is truth and He does not see something that is not there or not see something that is there. Scripture says that Christ bore our sins IN HIS BODY. I agree, Jesus was not a sinner. But to think that God just 'treats' people one way or another presupposes that God is pretending. I.e. God pretended to make Christ our sin sacrifice and God pretends to make us Christ's righteousness. Brother, I don't see it that way. Christ literally bore all my sins in His body and my spirit has, literally, been created in righteousness - Eph 4:24. My body is still unredeemed but my spirit has been baptized INTO Christ and therefore 'the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.' - 1 Cor 6:17. Christ is righteous, alive, and eternal and so is my spirit. In Him, Bill Mc |
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7 | What do you think? | Luke 23:34 | Morant61 | 17311 | ||
Greetings Bill Mc! I have been following some of these posts! I agree with you that Christ never stopped being God. However, I do have one question. Since "sins" are not physical things, how could Christ physically bear them in His body? I agree with Kalos on this point! The sacrifice in the Old Testament (Heb. 10:5, 10 as you pointed out with reference to Christ) took our place as a stand in. In the same way, Christ took our place upon the cross. Thus, He became our sin offering. However, sins are not physical things that He could carry in His body like a virus. They are acts of disobedience for which we deserve to die. I don't think it is a question of God pretending to make Christ our sin sacrifice. He was our sin sacrifice, our substitute. Let me know what you think! Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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8 | How did the imputation of sins happen? | Luke 23:34 | Bill Mc | 17314 | ||
Hi Tim! Great to hear from you! To your questions! First, let me say that I don't know or understand everything about how God carried out the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross. What my mind cannot understand and figure out, I have to accept by faith. I'm not saying that as a copout, I'm just saying that I'm limited. 1 Pet 2:24 - and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. Heb 10:5,10 - "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU HAVE NOT DESIRED, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME;" By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. This is what scripture says. 'He bore our sins in (not on) His body.' I don't know exactly how this happened, anymore than I understand completely how, at the cross, I was crucified, buried and risen with Christ. I am not trying to sound stupid here but, just because I cannot explain it, does not invalidate it. I agree, Tim, that 'sins' are not physical things as such. But they are thoughts, feelings and acts that DO exhibit themselves many times physically. So how did our Lord bear these thoughts, feelings, and acts in His body? I don't know. (There I go, sounding stupid again.) But we do know that it happened and that His body was the sacrifice for ours. We do know that He was made to be sin so that we could be made righteous in Him. How was my 'old man', my old nature, crucifed there with Christ? I wasn't even born yet! But Paul says it was. He says that, through this act, we have been crucified with Christ, and are dead to sin. Nevertheless, I was trying to make the point that however you want to define 'bore our sins in His body,' that it was His body that became sin, not His divinity. Paul says that we have indwelling sin in us. But he makes the distinction that it is not us. Paul says, "I don't do it, but sin which dwells in me, does it" - Rom 7:20. Some of these things are hard to understand. Some of these questions will probably not be answered until we get home. How did Christ bear my sins in His body? I don't know? But I believe He did because that is what it says. Can you shed any more light here? Note 1: I do believe that these sins where imputed (credited) to Christ and His righteousness is imputed (credited) to us. But I don't believe that this is a 'pretend' or 'positional' truth. If you have no money in your back account and I impute 10,000 dollars to your account, it is not a pretend thing. You can, if you so desire, make actual withdrawals from that account. In other words, I can't say, "Tim, I've imputed 10,000 dollars in your account but its not really there. I've only written the deposit amount in your checkbook but I never really made the deposit." What good with that be? I would be lying to you. If I've actually imputed 10,000 dollars to you, then you HAVE it. It's yours. And it wouldn't make much sense for me to say, "Well, Tim, it's there but you can't use it until you die." You would have no need of it then. Note 2: Speaking of money, I checked on those reference materials I asked you about concerning Greek grammar, etc. Could you impute about 2,000 dollars to my bank account so that I can buy them? Thanks. I appreciate it. ;) Note 3: How did we ever get on this rabbit trail? My question was concerning who was Christ requesting forgiveness for? Now, we are over in 2 Imputations chapter 3 verse 12. ??? In Christ, Bill Mc |
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9 | How did the imputation of sins happen? | Luke 23:34 | Morant61 | 17333 | ||
Greetings Bill! I have been following along for the last week or two, but I just haven't been posting alot! I've been very, very busy! By the way, you can impute that money to me at any time! :-) I understand what you are driving at, but I think that the same point can be made without resorting to a belief that Christ physically bore our sins! Let me explain! The word translated 'bore' in 1 Pet. 2:24 is the word 'anaphero'. It can simply mean 'to lift up', but there are several cases in the New Testament where it clearly means 'to offer as a sacrifice'. Consider the following verses: 1) Heb. 7:27 - "Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself." 2) Heb. 13:15 - "Through Jesus, therefore, let us continually offer to God a sacrifice of praise—the fruit of lips that confess his name." 3) James 2:21 - "Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?" 4) 1 Peter 2:5 - "you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ." In each of these verses, 'anaphero' is translated as 'sacrifice'. I believe that this is the way that this word should be understood in 1 Peter 2:24. Thus, His body is the sin sacrifice. This approach doesn't force us to theorize that one part of His nature was sin, while another part wasn't. His body was our sin sacrifice, but He was not a sinner. He simply took our place and paid our debt. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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10 | How did the imputation of sins happen? | Luke 23:34 | Bill Mc | 17351 | ||
Dear Tim, thanks again for your input! Once again you've given me something to look into and, if neccessary, adjust my theology to. Regardless, I don't believe that Christ's nature, as you called it, was ever made sin. And I agree with you that He was never a sinner. Your conclusion, 'He simply took our place and paid our debt,' may be simple (good for my level of understanding) but what a profound thing He did! Bless you, Tim. Bill (the lesser) Mc |
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11 | Tim, what is your understanding of this? | Luke 23:34 | Bill Mc | 17372 | ||
Dear Tim, what is your understanding of these passages? John 1:29; Rom 3:25; Heb 9:26; Heb 10:4,11; 1 John 3:5. These all speak of Christ taking away sin (or sins). Hebrews especially makes a point that the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sins but that Christ alone has done this. Obviously, Christ's blood has done something concerning sins that animal blood could not do. If you get time, could you share your understanding of the 'taking away' of sins? How is it different from the atonement that OT sacrifices executed? Also, my interlinear says that the literal translation of 1 Pet 2:24 is: 'who the sins of us himself carried up in the body of him onto the tree' It still seems to suggest that His sacrifice had something to do with our sins carried, bore, sacrificed IN HIS BODY. Isaiah 53:6 says that 'the LORD has caused the iniquities of us all to fall on Him.' Isaiah 53:11 says 'as He will bear their iniquities.' And Isaiah 53:12 says that 'He Himself bore the sin of many.' Scripture still seems to support that Jesus Christ was indeed 'to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.' - 2 Cor 5:21. Gal 3:13 says that Christ became a curse for us. These are all pretty strong statements that seem to imply more than just that God pretended to see Jesus as sin. My NASB Study Bible says that Paul seems to teach that Christ's HUMAN (not divine) nature became sin. I don't know about that. I will have to study it more. But if Jesus did not actually bear our sins in His body, then why did He die have to die? Couldn't God just have 'imputed' death to Him without it literally happening? Please be patient with me. I am trying to understand. In Him (and always curious), Bill Mc |
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12 | Tim, what is your understanding of this? | Luke 23:34 | Morant61 | 17469 | ||
Greetings Bill! Dealing with the easier matter first, your interlinear is correct. The question though is what does the word 'anaphero' mean. The base meaning is 'to lift up', but, as I demonstrated in my previous post, it is also used in the New Testament in several places with the technicule meaning of 'sacrifice'. I think that is the meaning in mind in 1 Peter 2:24. Secondly, I agree that God did more than just "pretend to see Jesus as sin". The death of Jesus was absolutely necessary. The best verse that you listed to explain this with is Rom. 3:25. It says, "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—" There are a couple of vital points made in this verse. The word translated as "sacrifice of atonement" is the Greek word 'hilasterion'. This word means an appeasment. My short winded understanding is this: God is both merciful and just. His justice demanded payment for sins. The penalty, according to Rom. 6:23, is death. Thus, in order for sin to be payed for, the sinner must die. However, God is also merciful. He didn't want us to have to die. Therefore, Christ took our place and appeased God's wrath. This is what the Old Testament system pointed forward to, the concept that someone else could take our place. As you pointed out though, the Old Testament sacrifices could not satisfy. The primary reason being that they did not effect real change within us. We were still sinners. Rom. 3:25 seems to hint at these when it talks about God's forebearance in not judging sin. Thus, the OT sacrifical system was a temporary measure to point us toward the future sacrifice of Christ and to withhold God's judgement. The sacrifice of Christ is different because it is the voluntary sacrifice of the offended on behalf of the offender. It is also different because of the identity of the sacrifice. His sacrifice is once for all, not needing to be repeated. It is His death which appeases God's rigtheous anger at sin. Further, He includes as part of His gift a new nature. So, when we come to Christ in faith, we are no longer sinners. He gives us a new nature. I don't know if I have explained this very well or not. But, the sacrifice of Christ was not pretend. However, neither is sin a things that can be physically carried by Christ's body. His body (or life) was the sacrifice for our sins. His body wasn't sin. The references you referred to are all consistent with this view. He took our penalty upon Himself. He became the perfect sin sacrifice. He took upon Himself the curse of our sin. However, all this was accomplished simply (there I go again) by dying in our place. Why did He have to die? That was the penalty for sin! I hope this helps! This is a very complex issue that could take book after book to discuss. It is not easy in a short posting. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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13 | Tim, what is your understanding of this? | Luke 23:34 | Bill Mc | 17476 | ||
Tim, very well explained! Thank you. If you have time, share your thoughts on my original forgiveness question at the top of this thread. Redeemed, Bill Mc |
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14 | Tim, what is your understanding of this? | Luke 23:34 | Morant61 | 17477 | ||
Greetings Bill! The original question: I would agree with you! There is a textual question regarding this prayer. Some early manuscripts do not include it, which leads some to say that it was not original. But, other good early manuscripts do include it, which leads some to say that it was omitted in light of the events of 70 a.d. Personally, I think it was original. With that in mind, as you pointed out, there is not specific identification of who the 'them' is. It could refer to the theives. It could refer to the crowds. It could refer to the Jews or the Romans. I think the more immediate application would be to those who were crucifying Him. However, I think it can be extended to all of us as well. This would fit with 1 John 2:2 -"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." Like you, I believe that atonement (forgiveness) was made for every human being upon the cross. No more sacrifice, no more forgiveness is necessary. It is complete at the cross for everyone who will accept it. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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