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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The time of your visitation? | Luke 19:44 | humbledbyhisgrace | 177869 | ||
Greetings Brother Mark! Thanks for the reply. You have posted quite a bit here for me to consider. That's good! My intent is to learn and I have yet to discuss the Word of God with anyone that I have not learned from it. I'm struggling a bit with seeing the same thing you are regarding this portion. The other I'll try and address latter. You said " Doesn't that change Jesus' words from "the time of My visitation" to "the purpose of My visitation"? Since he has ably pointed out that the term "visitation" in this context carries the purpose (for salvation) within it - I agree - why he is deflecting attention from the "time" of Jesus' visitation?" You ask the question why he is deflecting attention from the "time" of Jesus visitation. Help me understand why you think he is. I personally can't speak to Brother Piper's preterist beliefs so in regards to the attributed influence I couldn't say. However, you made the point so I must ask is it safe for me to assume that your beliefs are different then his in this area and if so then it can be expected that your interpretation of either the scriptures in question and/or Brother Piper's teaching are influenced by this as well? I have no position on this myself because at this point I'm not learned enough in eschatology or the teachings of Preterism. However, I'm interested in knowing more about the "time" issue. You said this troubled you and he deflected attention from the "time" of Jesus visitation. What do you think his intent was and how do you think it affects his explanation of the passage? Before I close I want to answer your question regarding changing the words of Jesus. My intent with my questions to you is not to avoid answering the question. It's truly to understand and grasp what you are saying. At this point, I don't agree his intent was to change the words of the Lord and/or deflect attention from the time of the visitation. Also, my intent is not to be a defender of brother Piper. I'm sure he would be more pleased if I didn't as I'm hardly qualified to do so ;-) Just trying to consider your teachings on this! I think you Brother for your time and consideration for helping me in this study! God Bless, Steve |
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2 | The time of your visitation? | Luke 19:44 | mark d seyler | 177881 | ||
Hi Steve, I did not mean for you to defend Piper's statements. I apologize if that was how I came across. I will try to be more careful! :-) I am asking rhetorically why he does these things. I don't really expect an answer, since who can speak for another? But anytime someone says "Jesus said . . . , but really He meant . . . ", this is a red flag for me. So as he says, in effect, "Jesus said time, but He meant purpose", I question this. He seems to be just ignoring that part of Jesus' statement - I assumed that he was doing this having chosen between alternatives of how to interpret this passage, hence my comment of "deflecting", as he redirects one's understanding of "time" as though it did not actually mean "time" (such as a particular moment in history), but rather referred to "purpose", but I suppose this could equally be done with a complete lack of intent, although I would not think of this man in that way, as to interpret a passage without giving consideration to the words used. I hope I am making sense! I follow a very very literal approach to Scripture. I am loath to ever say, "it says this, but it means that." If it says this, it means this, and I will change my beliefs so that I am accordance with the exact and plain teaching of Scripture. Many people, and I am not saying that Piper does this, but many people will become established in a belief or belief system, and will then interpret some Scriptures less literally in order to make them conform to their established belief system. Of course, there are other possible reasons as well for not interpreting a Scripture literally, as in some instances, the Bible defines some things symbolically. In those cases, we must cite the Biblical authority. Also there are times when we see a clear-cut pattern of word usage, which we can use to understand what the writer meant. This is what Piper has presented, yet I do not see the foundation he claims. I simply do not agree with his arguments. This is why I am interested in the word studies. He has cited word usage as his foundation, as "know" is used to mean "approve, accepted", yet I fail to see the word actually used as he cited. So I wonder that perhaps he has a different foundation. I have noticed this same tendency of non-literal interpretation of time-related Scriptures among preterists, so I wondered aloud if that may be related. I do not know to what degree Piper is preterist, nor how it may or may not affect his methods of Scriptural interpretation. As for myself, I have revised my eschatology continuously as I have continued to study such things. I am somewhat embarrassed about things I wrote 5 years ago, fortunately, not many people read them! :-) But to answer your question, I am considered Futurist, and am expecting future fulfillment of things that (to my understanding) Piper considers already fulfilled. But I want to stress that my knowledge of Piper's beliefs regarding prophetic fulfillment is extremely limited, so I do not wish to speculate further on this. But allow me to ask you, do you think Jesus was making a statement of the Jews not realizing that their Messiah was to come at a certain time, that the time had come, and they did not recognize it? Or do you think, as Piper teaches, that Jesus was saying the Jews failed to recognized the purpose of Jesus' coming? Which do you think embodies the meaning of the statement, "because you did not recognize the time of your visitation"? Love in Christ, Mark |
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3 | The time of your visitation? | Luke 19:44 | humbledbyhisgrace | 177943 | ||
Greetings Mark! "I hope I am making sense!" Yes my brother you are. I see the point(s) your making. As far as my belief / understanding of "because you did not recognize the time of your visitation." Yes I think our Lord is speaking of a particular time and that they did not recognize it. "I did not mean for you to defend Piper's statements. I apologize if that was how I came across. I will try to be more careful! :-)" Not at all. Just made the statement to help point out my only desire was to understand you on the points you raised as I didn't agree that his intent was to deflect. You have offered much to consider and I do appreciate that. I'm still digging! God Bless, Steve |
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