Results 1 - 7 of 7
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | How sinful is "fallen away"? | Mark 4:16 | Reformer Joe | 38345 | ||
When have I ever said, "Let go and let God"? With all sincerity, Zach, I think that you have lumped together in one monolithic category those who believe that once God has truly regenerated an individual, that his or her destiny is sure. The Reformers and the Puritans held to the perserverance of the all the saints of God, but none of them held to a "let-go-and-let God" mentality. None of them said that an individual who was truly saved could go out and live the rest of their lives in complete willful obedience to our holy God. However, you seem to put everyone who disagrees with your view into a Charles Ryrie/Zane Hodges/Charles Stanley category. You have even stooped so low as to take a sentence from a book by John MacArthur, in which he is referring to a view which he himself opposes, and have represented it as the view that he himself holds. You have not done your homework on this issue, Zach. The conditional statements that you have presented above fit squarely within a Reformation view of Scripture. I fully agree that those who are truly saved will endure to the end. However, if you think that your salvation is maintained by your works rather than the completed work of Christ, you have a much higher view of yourself than the Bible does. --Joe! |
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2 | How sinful is "fallen away"? | Mark 4:16 | zach† | 38352 | ||
Joe; In all sincerity; there is and has been a misunderstanding on this issue between those of the Reformed faith and those on the side of the Remonstrants. Whenever an Arminian trys to appeal to a Calvinist using scripture, we cannot help but get the sense that we are misunderstood, and the reply's we receive, indicate that many think that we believe that works maintain our salvation , even though we don't believe that. I never once mentioned works. What I have written is concerning "perseverance" and endurance which is scriptural. And endurance is perseverance. Also faith is a verb, and is not passive, we are to be pro-active in our faith. We are to pray, put on the full armor of God, we are to trust and obey, if you call that works, then I will remind you that even Scripure says: "faith without works is dead" James 2:20 that means life-less, less than saving faith, a dead non-existant faith is not a faith which can ever please God. Grace and peace be multiplied unto thee zach† |
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3 | How sinful is "fallen away"? | Mark 4:16 | Reformer Joe | 38356 | ||
I am right there with you on James, as is every good Reformed person. What is the Greek verb which means "faith"? How is obedience NOT a work? Isn't obedience DOING what Christ commanded? It is the mark of every true believer, but obedience is definitely something in the "works" category. You say that we must endure, and I agree. But it is God who keeps us from stumbling, and not us. (Jude 24) That is what I mean when I say that you have not done your homework. You keep repeating arguments against positions that I myself do not hold. You have been guilty of selectively quoting from individuals, misrepresenting their arguments (remember the "confused" Spurgeon from several weeks back?). You are guilty of intellectual dishonesty in promoting your view. If the preservation of God's elect is such a wrong doctrine, you would not need to go to the extremes that you do in order to promote it on this forum. Again, I encourage you to actually READ MacArthur's books _The Gospel According to Jesus_ and _The Gospel According to the Apostles_ to discover the biblical view...one that is neither works-based nor antinomian. --Joe! |
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4 | How sinful is "fallen away"? | Mark 4:16 | zach† | 38357 | ||
Joe; With all due respect. McArthur was the man i once looked to whenever I had a question about a certain portion of Scripture. I believed that if anyone would have the correct answer, then McArthur would. For years I daily listened to his radio program, read hi books and visted his web-site at gty.org. I actually personally made an icon out of McArthur. So it's not as if I haven't read, listened to, or studied what McArthur says; It was after time as I continued reading McArthur along side my Bible that the errors in McArthur's teaching became apparent to me. I still think highly of much of what McArthur teaches. But when it comes to scripture McArthur sides with Calvinism which to many is scripture, but for those like myself who see Calvinism as man's teachings we have to choose whether we will or will not believe scripture when it disagrees with what man teaches. Thats the bottom line Joe. So please don't hang us because we don't agree with men. We do believe what scripture says Grace and peace be multiplied unto thee. zach† |
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5 | How sinful is "fallen away"? | Mark 4:16 | Reformer Joe | 38380 | ||
Zach: You wrote: "I actually personally made an icon out of McArthur. So it's not as if I haven't read, listened to, or studied what McArthur says" Not carefully enough, apparently, since you missed the whole point of the book you referred to previously. To put MacArthur in the same theological camp as Charles Stanley is just sloppiness. And for you to repeatedly insist that the quote you gave from his book reflected his views is simply sinful deception. Do you realize how this reflects on the credibility of your position? You wrote: "But when it comes to scripture McArthur sides with Calvinism" On the issues of salvation, he sides with Calvin and Luther and the other Reformers, as well as Augustine. Oh, Paul, too. And none of these men were antinomianists. Lutherans and Calvinists have one of the highest views of the law to be found in evangelicalism today. However, you in your crusade to make man the sovereign in salvation have very publicly discredited your view. As I said before, go back and actually READ MacArthur's book. I am sure that you will find a great deal that you can agree with, as well as a high importance placed on works as evidence of the new birth. MacArthur is not an antinomian, nor should anyone be. However, the other extreme of Galatian-esque legalism is just as unbiblical. --Joe! |
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6 | One more time, "fallen away"? | Mark 4:16 | Cyclist | 38529 | ||
Hello members! Hope all is well! It's great to be saved! All glory be to God, and praise to His Son Jesus who died for the sins of the world! I know that there has been a lot of discussion on the forum regarding the loss of salvation and falling away. I have been giving this a lot of thought lately and would like to ask another question about this. What exactly is "fallen away"? and, Was Paul saying in Heb 6:6 that we could not return to Jesus? I would like to see some more discussion around this. When David and Moses sinned had they fallen away? When Peter denied Jesus and when he had to be corrected by Paul was he fallen away? or, Is satan, his demons, and his followers the description of fallen away? In one of my previous posts, in answer to a question regarding Heb 6:6, I responded that no person, not even a christian, can win some one who has fallen away back to repentance but the fallen away person could only be brought back in by the working of the Holy Spirit. Was this not a good interpretation of this verse? What about the church in Rev 2:5 below, is this the description of fallen away or was Paul reffering to something different in Heb 6:6? Rev 2:4 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Rev 2:5 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. What about Luke 9:51-56? Luke 9:55 But He turned and rebuked them, [and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of; Luke 9:56 for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them."] And they went on to another village. This is not an attempt to draw any one into debate. I do, however, appreciate the postings from you members of the forum and would like to ask you to comment just this one more time on the subject of fallen away. Always your brother in Christ, Cyclist PS I'm sorry to read that Zach left the forum. GOD BLESS YOU Zach! |
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7 | One more time, "fallen away"? | Mark 4:16 | Searcher56 | 38550 | ||
Cyclist, this has been previously discussed. Rereead the various posts. Searcher |
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