Results 1 - 4 of 4
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Matt. 17:11-13 Elijah to John the Bapt.? | Matt 17:12 | Appleseed | 141548 | ||
Kim, A quick bridge building answer - Based on the “reincarnation principle”, if this was true and we know it isn’t, when the body dies then the soul moves into another body. We know that this cannot be the case for Elijah the Prophet because he is not dead but in heaven (2 Kings 2:1). The Biblical answer – Let me make a statement and then try to prove it biblically. Was John the Baptist the same Elijah that was in the Old Testament? No. Was John the Baptist reincarnated with all of Elijah the Prophet’s spirit, which will now mean Elijah doesn’t have a spirit in Heaven? No. Did John the Baptist have the same calling and same spirit as Elijah the Prophet? Yes. First some background. All the righteous before Jesus was resurrected went down to Sheol, in the earth. Except for Enoch (Gen. 5:24; Heb. 11:5), Elijah (2 King 2:1) and Moses (Jude 9) they went to heaven. Jesus was the first fruit of those who died who went to heaven (Col. 1:18; Acts 26:23; 1 Cor. 15:20; Matt. 27:64; Rev. 1:5). What about the prophet Samuel who served the LORD from a child surely he went to heaven? No to paradise in Sheol (1 Sam. 28:13-15), what about the “anointed” sons of Korah the Chief Musician? No (Ps. 49:14-15 Interlinear), King Hezekiah? No (Is. 38:10), surely King David? No (Acts 2:34; 13:36). Sheol is a place located inside the earth, it was owned by death and the owner of death was Satan (Heb. 2:14-15). Thus Satan owned all the souls of those who died from the beginning of creation. The righteous and wicked people both went there but were slotted into the different chambers within Sheol. Sheol (H7585) included Paradise/Abraham’s bosom (G3857), Hades/Pit (H953, G86, H7845), Tartarus/Prison of Fallen Angels (G5020), Abyss/bottomless pit (G12, G5421) and Gehenna/Hell/Lake of eternal fire (G1067). Jesus sacrificed Himself to set everyone who loved God free forever. “The graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had died were raised” (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:6). How? Jesus took the keys of Hades and Death away from Satan (Rev. 1:18; Heb. 2:14-15) so that we never have to be oppressed by the fear of death again (1 Cor. 15:55; Hos. 13:14). About Elijah and John - 1) In Matt. 11:11 It does not say John is the least in the Kingdom of Heaven BUT that the least is greater than he. Why? Because John the Baptist wasn’t even part of the Kingdom of Heaven until after Jesus was glorified. We know that Elijah the prophet was in the Kingdom of Heaven so the only way this can be true is if John the Baptist and Elijah were not the same. 2) When John died he didn’t go to heaven but went to Sheol – the same place King David, Abraham, Samuel etc. went. Why? Because Jesus was not yet glorified. After he was “the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had died were raised” (Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:6). About 1 year before this happened Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on mount (Matt. 17). If John the Baptist was the Prophet Elijah then Jesus would be calling Elijah from the Paradise which was in Sheol. And at that time it was owned by satan. Jesus would be no better than a medium that Saul used to call up Samuel. Net, God placed the same spirit and calling in John the Baptist as Elijah so that the prophecy of Mal. 4:5 can be fulfilled in John the Baptist. John the Baptist came in the power of Elijah Luke 1:16-17. Andre |
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2 | Matt. 17:11-13 Elijah to John the Bapt.? | Matt 17:12 | DocTrinsograce | 141550 | ||
Good answer, Andre! You've been in the forum a long time. You must lurk a lot! :-) Would Moses, indeed, be one of those translated? Deuteronomy 34:5 states that Moses died, and verse 7 of that same chapter states his age at death. Jude 9 seems to indicate that the contention between Michael and the devil was over Moses' corpse. Or have I misunderstood something somewhere along the line? In Him, Doc |
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3 | Matt. 17:11-13 Elijah to John the Bapt.? | Matt 17:12 | Appleseed | 143412 | ||
To be brief :), first a statement then justification - Moses was raised from the dead, like Lazarus and others. But unlike Lazarus, Moses went to heaven, translated like Elijah. It happened sometime after his death and before mount transfiguration. I wondered why did God personally burry Moses’ body? Why did God protect Moses’ dead body and no one elses? Why did satan want it so badly? The reason is not to hide it from the people to stop them committing idolatry. As there were many other great men of God that had graves, why didn’t they dig up their bones to make them “Idols”? Not one example of where God’s people, those who FEARED God, did this with their kings/leaders bones. Also they know that it is unclean to even touch a corpse and to make something an idol is even worse. So the ones who seek God wouldn’t have stumbled at this. There must be another reason for God to burry it, hide it from people and especially to protect it against satan “the destroyer.” Why did God preserve and take care of it Himself? We try to preserve bodies over the years with aloes, spices etc but to be honest sincerely unsuccessfully. Note, we try but God would surely succeed if He did it. Why would God preserve and protect Moses body? For a future purpose! What future purpose? Moses will be one of the two witnesses during the tribulation period (Rev. 11:3-5). Moses meets the criteria of the witness described in Zech. 4. Also the witness does similar miracles to that which Moses did in Egypt (Rev. 11:6). And Jesus spoke about His second coming (end of the tribulation) He spoke to Moses and Elijah (Matt. 17). These 2 witnesses, Moses and Elijah, will come from heaven’s paradise in their physical corruptible bodies at the same time the rapture happens? And Just like Moses showed Israel their sins he will be showing the world their sins and the importance of a Savoir, Jesus Christ. They would need to die or be raptured in order to be redeemed by the Blood of Christ, and they do at mid tribulation (Rev. 11:7-10). Peter reiterated what Jesus spoke about on mount “transfiguration”, the sacred mountain (2 Peter 1:16-21). Moses needs a corruptible body not an incorruptible one to fulfill his purpose as a witness, as he would need to die at the hands of the Beast’s friend (Rev. 11:7-10). Wouldn’t be able to do it in an incorruptible one. Saints who were in paradise when Jesus was resurrected would have received one either at Jesus’ resurrection (Matt. 27:52 - where some saints received) or at the rapture where the rest would receive it (1 Cor. 15:50-54). Therefore Moses would have received his and wouldn’t be possible for him to die, which would mean the following would be exposed: 1) he couldn’t have been one of the witnesses the two witnesses that performed miracles similar to Moses Rev. 11 2) Why did Jesus speak with him at the mount. 3) There would be no reason for the God to personally bury the body of Moses and protect it as He didn’t do that for anyone else. 4) How did Jesus have the power over Moses spirit by calling it out of Sheol when it belonged to Satan. Moses wouldn’t have been permitted to see Jesus at mount transfiguration unless he was in his body. Why? Jesus couldn’t have called him from Sheol’s paradise because He didn’t have the authority over Sheol, only Satan did at that time (per the previous message). Now if Jesus knew where Moses body was and raised him from the dead then that would have been possible (not saying Jesus did – Hypothetical). But to bring up a spirit from death without addressing the reason the spirit has authority on earth, the body, He couldn’t. He would be like the mediums. Look at Lazarus, Jesus brought his spirit back from Sheol and Lazarus body lived again. Jesus could only raise him by addressing the very thing that gives the spirit the right to rule on earth – their body (spirit’s earth suit). Without an earth suit, body, our spirit is not allowed to exercise its rights over the earth (Gen. 1:28; Ps. 8:6-8; Ps. 115:16). It needs to be in one. Why did Jesus if 2 agree on earth … (Matt. 18:19). For this reason Jesus didn’t exercise his authority as the Son of God but the Son of Man (John 5:27) a big difference. If He called up the dead He would be like the mediums that relinquish their authority to Satan. It is possible that Moses came down from paradise in his body because he was raised earlier by someone exercising their authority as the Son of Man (Elijah? Jesus?) and God translated him to heaven like Elijah, still unredeemed. Would Jesus have known where Moses body would be buried and could He have raised Moses from the dead? This would mean seeing Moses at mount transfiguration would be legal, makes sense why God protected his body. Also means Moses is not redeemed yet but will be during the trib. therefore makes sense that he be one of the witnesses and a good reason why Jesus spoke to them. Just a theory that is out there. |
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4 | Matt. 17:11-13 Elijah to John the Bapt.? | Matt 17:12 | DocTrinsograce | 143413 | ||
Hi there, Andre... Thank you for taking the time to reply. I find this speculation in at least one scholarly dispensational camps, but nothing in the more orthodox circles (past or present). Not that that, in itself, invalidates the argument. If I were more of a dispensationalist myself, I'd probably suggest it would be "easier" to suppose that Enoch would be one of the two witnesses. I tend, however, to lean a bit more toward the neo-covenantal theologies. Also -- and brother Tim is going to laugh at me over this -- there are a lot of dots that are being connected in this argument. There are other possible branches along the way that are equally plausible. Inferences are valuable, but the must be indisputable based on other certain premises. Furthermore, the more of them we make going down a particular path, the harder it is to be sure we've ended up at the truth. Remember, we follow inferences, we do not use them to get where we want to go. I've never really studied much eschatology. That's mostly because it seemed like a waste of time when there was so much other stuff to study. (Sorry, just what it seems like to me.) I also tend to have a bit of bias towards it since it seems so popular among those who do not otherwise take time to know the Scriptures. I have supreme confidence that my God is working out His eternal purpose, without deviation, and perfectly on schedule. You've obviously spent some time on this. I don't mean to be disagreable or discouraging in any way. I am heartened to find another person in the forum who takes time to reflect on things. I thought, however, that it was more polite to send this rambling reply than just a simple "Ah." :-) In Him, Doc PS By the way, where I saw this theory expressed (but without the thorough explanation that you provided) was in Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible. Here is what they wrote, "Satan, as having the power of death, opposed the raising of it again, on the ground of Moses' sin at Meribah, and his murder of the Egyptian. That Moses' body was raised, appears from his presence with Elijah and Jesus (who were in the body) at the Transfiguration: the sample and earnest of the coming resurrection kingdom, to be ushered in by Michael's standing up for God's people. Thus in each dispensation a sample and pledge of the future resurrection was given: Enoch in the patriarchal dispensation, Moses in the Levitical, Elijah in the prophetical." |
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