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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Jesus brothers. | Matt 12:46 | jlpangilinan | 123887 | ||
Emmaus, Did mary remained a virgin after having sexual intercourse with joseph? Mt 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. In that verse it is clear that Mary and Joseph did not have sexual intercourse till mary brought forth Jesus. Ge 4:1 ΒΆ And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon knew: Original word:ginwvskw Translated word:Ginosko Phonetic spelling: ghin-oce'-ko Definition: Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman God bless, |
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2 | Jesus brothers. | Matt 12:46 | Emmaus | 123899 | ||
1 of 4 Hello Johnny, I will let St. Jerome respond. He wrote this defense in 383 A.D. Calvin quoted Jerome when he defended the doctrine of Mary's perpetual virginity, which doctrine Luther also held. ""TILL" 5. This, however, is a point which will find its proper place further on. We must now move on to other matters. The passage for discussion now is, "And Joseph arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took unto him his wife and knew her not till she had brought forth a son, and he called his name Jesus" [Matt. 1:24-25]. Here, first of all, it is quite needless for our opponent to show so elaborately that the word "know" has reference to coitus, rather than to intellectual apprehension, as though anyone denied it or any person in his senses could ever imagine the folly which Helvidius takes pains to refute. Then he would teach us that the adverb "till" implies a fixed and definite time, and when that is fulfilled, he says the event takes place which previously did not take place, as in the case before us, "and knew her not till she had brought forth a son." It is clear, says he, that she was known after she brought forth, and that that knowledge was only delayed by her engendering a son. To defend his position he piles up text upon text, waves his sword like a blindfolded gladiator, rattles his noisy tongue, and ends with wounding no one but himself. 6. Our reply is briefly this -- the words "knew" and "till" in the language of Holy Scripture are capable of a double meaning. As to the former, he himself gave us a dissertation to show that it must be referred to sexual intercourse, and no one doubts that it is often used of the knowledge of the understanding, as, for instance, "the boy Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem, and his parents knew it not." Now we have to prove that just as in the one case he has followed the usage of Scripture, so with regard to the word "till" he is utterly refuted by the authority of the same Scripture, which often denotes by its ["till"'s] use a fixed time (he himself told us so) [and] frequently time without limitation, as when God by the mouth of the prophet says to certain persons, "Even unto old age I am He" [Is. 46:4]. Will He cease to be God when they have grown old? And the Savior in the Gospel tells the Apostles, "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" [Matt. 28:20b]. Will the Lord then after the end of the world has come forsake His disciples, and at the very time when seated on twelve thrones they are to judge the twelve tribes of Israel will they be bereft of the company of their Lord? Again Paul the Apostle writing to the Corinthians says, "Christ the first-fruits, afterward they that are Christ's, at his coming. Then comes the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet" [1 Cor. 15:23-25]. Granted that the passage relates to our Lord's human nature, we do not deny that the words are spoken of Him who endured the cross and is commanded to sit afterwards on the right hand. What does he mean then by saying, "for he must reign, till he has put all enemies under his feet"? Is the Lord to reign only until His enemies begin to be under His feet, and once they are under His feet will He cease to reign? Of course His reign will then commence in its fullness when His enemies begin to be under His feet [cf. Luke 1:33, Rev. 11:15]. David also in the fourth Song of Ascent [Ps. 123] speaks thus, "Behold, as the eyes of servants look unto the hand of their master, as the eyes of a maiden unto the hand of her mistress, so our eyes look unto the Lord our God till he has mercy upon us" [Ps. 123:2] Will the prophet, then, look unto the Lord till he obtain mercy, and when mercy is obtained will he turn his eyes down to the ground? -- although elsewhere he says, "Mine eyes fail for your salvation, and for the word of your righteousness" [Ps. 119:123]. I could accumulate countless instances of this usage, and cover the verbosity of our assailant with a cloud of proofs; I shall, however, add only a few, and leave the reader to discover like ones for himself." http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/helvidiu.htm Emmaus |
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3 | Jesus brothers. | Matt 12:46 | Morant61 | 123909 | ||
Greetings Emmaus! I fully agree with Jerome's point about the word 'firstborn'. Every firstborn is firstborn, but it does not necessarily follow that other children were born. However, as you know, I take a different position than you on the issue of Mary having other children. As such, I disagree with Jerome's argument concerning the word 'until'. The word clearly does not indicate that Joseph and Mary had sexual relations at the exact moment that Mary delivered Jesus. This is clearly a hyper literalistic attempt to descredit the clear meaning of the phrase. Allow me to illustrate from Matthew how the word 'heos' is used with verbs. Matthew 2:13 says, "When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. 'Get up,' he said, 'take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.'" Matthew 2:15 records, "where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: 'Out of Egypt I called my son.'" The word 'until' does not mean that they only stayed in Egypt until the exact second of Herod's birth and then returned. It simply means that there stay in Egypt was to extend until Herod's death. At some point after that event, they would return. In fact, this is exactly what Mt. 2:19 records. An angel tells Joseph in a dream that Herod has died and that they can return. Nothing in the word 'until' indicates that they immediately left for Israel in the middle of the night! :-) Mt. 5:26 speaks of someone not getting out of prison 'until' he has paid the last penny owed. Mt. 10:11 speaks of staying in a house 'until' you leave. So, I would respectfully argue that the nature of the adverb 'until' definitely indicates that Joseph did not have sexual relations with Mary until some point after the birth of Jesus, but that they did in fact after that point. If the verse meant that Joseph and Mary never had sexual relations, Matthew simply could have left out the word 'heos' and his meaning would have been quite clear. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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4 | Jesus brothers. | Matt 12:46 | Emmaus | 123912 | ||
Tim, If you had agreed with everything I posted I would expect you to swim the Tiber next Sunday. I never anticipate agreement with my post on issues of controversy here. I am satisfieds with an acknowlgement of their plausability. Emmaus |
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5 | Jesus brothers. | Matt 12:46 | Morant61 | 123920 | ||
Greetings Emmaus! I'm not a very good swimmer! :-) I appreciate your spirit my friend and respect your views. However, I honestly don't see Jerome's view on the word 'heos' as even plausible. It is a temporal adverb. When used with a verb, it places limits upon the timing of a verb. Well, I'd better go practice swimming. :-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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