Results 1 - 5 of 5
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | atdcross | 164730 | ||
Romans 7 is, I believe, not descriptive of any personal experience before or after conversion. 1 John 1:8-10 is not intended as descriptive of anyone's personal problems in relation to sin. These verses seem to combat some heretical teachings at the time related to claims of being sinless or absolute perfection. Regarding your surprise at my suggestion, after stating there are no inherent contradictions in the Bible, you claim, “the verses you quote refer to man's idea of what is good.” The verses I quoted were the words of Jesus (Matt 7:11; Luke 11:13), therefore, making the implication that Jesus statements here are merely “man’s idea.” I assumed you did not realize it and I only sought clarity in your position. Luke 11:13 stress the point of my argument. Jesus is affirming that even evil people can do a good deed. In general we may not disagree, however, specifically I disagree that the interpretation of Romans 7 is descriptive of the apostle’s personal experience. (1) To the question, “No one acts good”? the answer is that evil people to commit acts that are in and of themselves morally good. (2) To the question, “Paul had problems?” (in relation to Romans 7), the answer is that the apostle claimed to have led a blameless life before and after conversion (Phil 3:4-6; Acts 24:16). The apostle had no such struggle with sin as described in Romans 7:14 or 8:8. "Paul's experience as a Christian is the last thing that could be considered as the topic here. 'I am carnal, sold under sin'...To refer these words to Paul's status as a Christian, or to the status of any other Christian, is to torture the word of God...Paul had just finished saying that Christians are 'dead to sin' and 'alive unto God' in Christ Jesus (Romans 6:11); and to apply these words to Christians is to contradict what had just been stated" (Coffman). |
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2 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | ebrain | 164746 | ||
Thank you for your post above, which I find most challenging, I will now address each of the verses you quote in turn. Romans 7, please explain how a person speaking in the first person singular present tense, and doing so at the behest of the Holy Spirit, is not refering to himself? You will be pleased to know that I do not teach "Sinless Perfection". Jesus was only refering to the way in which men think/judge things, and not the way He Jesus (one who is sinlessly perfect),Judges. Luke 11:13. Here Jesus is only saying that evil people are able to give gifts that other evil people think are good, and indeed as I have said before, we fallen sinfull humans do think that we can give good gifts, but this is not what God says. Phil 3:4-6, Paul is clearly refering to the time before his conversion, when he was as v6 says "a persecutor of the church", and why did you leave out veses 7-8, where the above verses are put into there correct perspective. Paul counts what he had refered to in verses 4-6 as gain, now in verses 7-8, as "lost rubbish". Regarding Acts 24:16, you will be pleased to know that I also feel the same way. Must close now due to time, more later. Christian love. Edwin. |
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3 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | atdcross | 165039 | ||
As I stated, it seems to me that the apostle is using the first person in Romans 7 as a literary device to make the point that, as believers, we are not enslaved to sin through the Law. Sin need no longer be a problem. We have been given the grace (enablement) to overcome sin at every turn. True, there may be a struggle with the impulses of sin but we can gain and maintain the victory at every turn; we are not in the position where what we hate to do we do or where the good we want to do we don’t do. Such is a description of the sinner and not the saint, the unbeliever and not the believer. Luke 11:13 - As I read the passage, it does not seem to me that your interpretation is warranted. Jesus is not saying that the gifts others give are evil gifts while the gifts he gives are good. He is saying that in view of the fact, borne out by experience, that evil people can and do give good gifts to others, it is certain that God, who is not evil but absolutely good, will give good gifts to his children. An unbelieving father gives his daughter a gift certificate to Old Navy for her birthday to buy clothes she needs. Is that an evil gift, in and of itself, to God? “Sinful, fallen humans” are capable and actually do give good gifts and act in morally good ways towards others. The evil is not in the act of giving what is good but in it’s being an act done apart from relationship with God. Phil 3:4-6 - Yes, the apostle is referring to before his conversion and that is my point. With reference to himself he makes no assertions of having sinned against God or having a problem obeying the law as you contend he does in Romans 7. In the apostle’s self-analysis, he declares he is, with specific reference to the Torah, blameless; he does not see himself as one who had problems carrying out the letter of the law; Paul did not view himself as one who disobeyed Torah. Verses 7 and 8 emphasize the point I am trying to make. What did the apostle count as rubbish? “Every kind of covetous desire” (Rom 7:8)? No. It seems to me, as the context shows, that Paul counted as rubbish the righteousness he had established under Torah/Law. |
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4 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | BradK | 165042 | ||
Dear atdcross, How would Paul be using the First Person in Romans 7 as a literary device? In 7:6 it is the First Person singular with the Active mood. This would describe Paul as the one acting! I see no such evidence to support your claim. Verses 7-13 are all in the Past Tense, describing Paul before his coming to Christ, while 14-25 are all in the Present Tense, describing his current state. Your view seems to be at odds with the grammar. As 7:25 is also, First person singular, Present tense, Active voice, how would this not be descriptive of his experience as a believer? The only way I see this is a contradiction is if one were advocating sinless perfection?! Is this your position? Paul is not. There is the ongoing struggle against our 2 natures. That is why Paul implores us to "walk in the Spirit" (Gal. 5:16-17). Speaking the Truth in Love, BradK |
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5 | Paul had problems? No one acts good? | Matt 11:28 | atdcross | 165240 | ||
I fail to see why Paul cannot use the "first person" as a device in writing to others to explain a point. Sometimes, too much of an argument is made based on the grammer or the meaning of a word (not that it should be dismissed) and that is why some mistakes are made in interpretation, that is, in attempting to understand the intended meaning of the text. In any case, I am unfamiliar with Greek and cannot answer based on the Greek language or grammer (I'm bad enough with English!). But let me give and uneducated answer: Rom 7:6. Here the apostle is literally referring to himself. The illustration using himself begins from verse 7 through to the end. In these verses he is expanding on the illustration of marriage to make his point. Note that what he says in verse 6 is contrary to the what he states in the verses that follow. Regarding vs. 7-25, I have stated before my reasons for disagreeing with the interpretation that these verses literally describe Paul before or after conversion. In any case, "ongoing struggle against our 2 natures", however, the struggle in Rom 7 is seen as a losing battle against sin; it does not depict one who is walking in the Spirit as Galatians depicts it. Also, allow me to back up a bit. I do not mean that Paul was not a sinner or a slave to sin before conversion, nor do I mean to say that in all respects Rom 7 does not depict, to one degree or another, in one form or another, the apostle's plight apart from grace. Paul may have been a covetous person. The point is, he did not see himself as a covetous person before conversion. He saw himself as righteous according to the Law. Paul may have contended with a guilty conscience for some time, nevertheless, he seems to have mollified it's pangs with an evaluation of himself as righteous. I am saying, Rom 7 does not necessarily have any literal reference to the apostle's life before or after conversion. He is making a general statement concerning the law and man's condition in relation to it; it is applicable to every man as a sinner (not as a believer, cf. v.1). The point he wished to make was not so much what his life was or is like but what the Law is and its function (v.7). For example, before conversion Paul could not have seen that the Law was death (v.9-10) to him because he felt that he was following the Law and thus was, not a "sinner", but a righteous man; he felt that the commandment gave him life (Phil 3:6). Paul persecuted the Church because he thought it was the righteous thing to do. After his conversion, the apostle learned that his zeal for God, rather than establishing righteousness for him, brought him under the divine disapproval (Rom 10:3); and it is through hindsight he says, "when the commandment came to life, sin sprang to life, and I died" (v.9). I do not advocate "sinless perfection", however, I do believe the attainment (on this side of heaven) of living blamelessly before God is possible. I have met two persons who I believed lived such a life, at least, as long as I've known and been in close or intimate contact with them. That one may struggle against sin does not necessarily nullify the possibility of living in Biblical perfection (or blamelessness); Gal 5:16-17 does not speak against its attainment but for it. |
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