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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | General Revelation | Jer 10:10 | Beja | 240305 | ||
Jalek, Let me first say it is refreshing to see a post that plainly desires to analyse a passage of scripture about a specific question. I have a few thoughts and questions for you. First, I'm not very clear on what you are specifically disagreeing with in Sproul's post or what precisely you are asserting. I am sure that is my fault but is there anyway you could help me see what thesis your line of reasoning is meant to prove? Second, I'm not sure about that interpretation of verse 19. The actual words used in the greek could just as easily be interpreted as "among them" as it could "in them." So I begin wondering what that phrase could mean. Then I note the way Paul supports the statment. He says, "It is (phrase in question) for God revealed it to them." So the reason it is in them is because God has plainly revealed it not because it is inherently tied up in what each of us are. Now I don't disagree that mankind is made in God's image. But it seems in this passage Paul is not referring to anything inherent in humans, but rather trying to say that due to general revelation by God, knowledge of God is readily within our midst due to creation all around us. So I don't think he is arguing from some internal thing or image of God. The point is that this general revelation of God is in our midst. Not sure how crucial that is to your arguement but thoughts? Finally, your final phrase concerns me, allow me to repost. "Each time a step is taken, God gives mankind a chance to turn back from their ways, and recognize his sovereignty. If they don't, God punishes them." What concerns me, is that it sounds a little like you are suggesting that if mankind had at any point simply repented then faith in Christ's personal intervention on our behalf would have been unnecessary. Because trusting in that is what we are talking about with "special revelation." Could mankind have responded to general revelation during one of these steps and been "ok" with God? I would think not, because a sin debt remains still regardless of whether they further add to that debt. If that is so then while we may not like the tone of the statement, we do affirm that general revelation only gives enough knowledge to condemn us. I suspect your point is thus: While general revelation does indeed condemn us, it may also spur us to seek out that special revelation that saves us, which is the gospel. Am I close? In Christ, Beja |
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2 | General Revelation | Jer 10:10 | Jalek | 240310 | ||
Greetings, First off, I'm not disagreeing with the quote from R. C. Sproul. I believe more clarification is needed. Secondly, the greek phrase, transliterated, is en autois. En is used with the locative case meaning "in, at, or on" or in the instrumental case meaning "by means of". Both of those are aspects of the dative case, which autois is in. So, the translation of "within them" is the more accurate translation. "among" would be closer to the greek preposition of Peri when used in the accusative case. With this insight, it is my belief that Paul is not only referring to God revealing himself through nature around us, but within us as well. After all, we are a part of God's creation and a part of nature as well. Thirdy, if you break down Romans 1:18-32 down and look at it from a strictly grammatical view, there are certain breaks in the passage where the thought shifts slightly: 18-20, 21-23, 24-25, 26-27, 28-32. These breaks and shifts in thought shows God punishing Mankind for their previous actions, and man falls further into depravity as a result. This begins in verse 21 with mankind not honoring God or giving him thanks. Now, I'm not saying that Jesus Christ is unnecessary. What I'm saying is that General Revelation gives enough knowledge to not only convict man of sin, but to also point them in the right direction which will ultimately lead to knowledge of Christ. So, yes, you're on the mark with what I'm trying to convey. We shouldn't dismiss general revelation as simply a means by which mankind is condemned. John 3:18 says "He who believes in him is not judged; he who does not believe is judged already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." We come to know about the Son of God through Special Revelation, but how does General Revelation condemn us? It condemns us because it contains the first step towards coming to a saving belief in Christ. Jalek |
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3 | General Revelation | Jer 10:10 | Beja | 240311 | ||
Jalek, Thank you for the clarifications. I think I understand you better now. I still disagree with your reading of verse 19 for two reasons. Reason 1: I maintain that "in" is not the best translation for this context. First, en is far far more flexible of a preposition than you suggest here. But specifically I have compiled a list of places where the NASB has translated the phrase "en autois" as "among them. Luke 9:46;22:24;John9:16;15:24 Acts 4:34;18:11;24:21;25:6 Rom 11:17 2 Peter 2:8 Plainly "among them" is a possible translation for the phrase "en autois." However, (reason 2) I don't mean to suggest that the phrase itself constrains this interpretation. There are many instances where this phrase is not translated as such but is translated variously "with them" "by them" and "in them". It is the context which guides our translation as to what the proper sense is in the particular passage. And in this instance you failed to respond to what I am suggesting is the key contextual constrain. The passage says that it is "en autois for God revealed it to them." The basis in this context of it being "in them or among them" is that it was revealed to them. This in my mind rules out something inherrent in humans being referred to. Some sort of revelation is the basis, and in the context it is indeed general revelation within creation. Now this being said I think your point in no way rests on this question, or at least I don't see how it would. Also with regards to "but how does General Revelation condemn us? It condemns us because it contains the first step towards coming to a saving belief in Christ." I would suggest that it condemns us because in our idolatry and living for our pleasures, it removes all pretense of suggesting we didn't know such things were wrong. Once again there is a phrase that gives the basis of why "They are without excuse." Verses 20 and 21 say,"...so that they are without excuse. FOR even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks." So Paul's point is that general revelation means that they knew they were doing wrong. There is no place in the passage where Paul is arguing that general revelation condemns because it is the first step towards salvation. Now you might argue this from other passages, but I think it is nowhere in Romans 1. At least that I can yet see. In Christ, Beja |
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