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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Why two tablets ??? | Is 33:22 | swerv | 152478 | ||
Do you think God - Himself (Ex.31:18)- writing the 10 commandments on the (2) tablets has any correlation to the 10 commandments being summarized by Jesus into (2) broad commandments. The commandments written by God regarding our relationship to Him on 1 tablet and the commandments written by God regarding our relationship to our neighbours written on 1 tablet. The point here is the NT does not re-invent the law but instead repeats the moral law (10 comm.) of the OT. Is.42:21 clearly says Christ would magnify the law. And Ps. 40:7,8 says Jesus delights to do the will of God and thy law is within Jesus's heart. That is why He led a Perfect life on earth and therefore died a sinless man and paying our debt. The law written on our hearts as part of the NT covenant is the same as the law written on Jesus's heart. This is the 10 commandments. The same moral law Abraham was keeping (Gen. 26:5) prior to any written law at Sinai. |
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2 | Why two tablets ??? | Is 33:22 | DocTrinsograce | 152479 | ||
Hi, Merv... Christ's answer was very similar to Hillel's response to the same question some 60 years earlier. An evaluation of the ten commandments makes it clear that the question of my relationship to God and my relationship to others is what is at issue. I'm unclear as to why there would be a relationship between two tablets and two broad issues. Unless there is an explicit reason to do otherwise, one must assume that there were five commandments on each tablet, as is depicted in traditional Jewish representations. Don't you see more grace than law in the life of Abraham? He was guilty of offending at least nine of the commandments, sometimes repeatedly. Paul tells us it was his God given faith, not his works in the law that accorded God's gift of justification. After all, it was God who chose Abraham, not the reverse. Also, remember that God has written His law in the hearts of believers (Hebrews 10:16) but also unbelievers (Romans 2:15). God's law in the hearts of men is not what saves. It is the Lord Jesus alone who saves. Righteousness is a gift of God, not a matter of compliance with the law. In Him, Doc |
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3 | Why two tablets ??? | Is 33:22 | swerv | 152510 | ||
Doc: I do agree that Abraham did break God's commandments - but that is why we are all sinners - we have all broken at least one commandment. Abraham did not have the power of the HS as we have today to overcome all temptations to sin. That being said - Abraham and Noah were "righteous" in the eyes of God - that is why God gave them grace. As I have stated before in many responses - we must get a good grasp of what is "God's grace". It is not God's will of salvation imposed on individuals (OT or NT). Grace is God's willingness to forgive a repentant sinner and as well to give the opportunity to the sinner to gain forgiveness by repentance and change. David is a great example of one who should have died for his sins but he was so repentive - God did not require his death like many other times in His theocracy but gave him life and forgiveness. Our world would not be where it is today if God did not give grace to Adam/Eve after they sinned. The only reason God did not destroy even Noah in the flood was because Noah found "grace" in the eyes of the Lord. You say faith is given and God's gift is justification - BUT this I disagree with. Faith is shown by our heart and our actions. Justification is given by God because of our own personal choice (will) to repent and change our sinful life - to a life following the commands of God. God chosing Abraham is a reflection of Abraham having a heart for God. If we did not have to reveal our love and obedience for God then - Why would not God save everyone ????? I agree that all men have an understanding of God's law which is within us - BUT it is the obedience of that heart that reflect our love for God or our love for ourselves and the world. I disagree that the "Lord Jesus alone saves" - We cannot be saved unless we are willing to be saved. God gave us free will to either obey or not. That was the whole purpose of the forbidden fruit in the garden. Would man obey God or Satan. But I will agree that the death of the Perfect Lamb (Jesus) is what atones for our sins and only this sacrifice on His part can save us from our sins. The result of our sins is death. Therefore to accept Jesus death and realize there is nothing we can do to atone for our sins is a reflection of our faith in that atonement. But once we accept this God expects our loyalty to Him now and this is shown by not committing sin. We are to live like Christ. We have the power and knowledge now to overcome temptation and flee from sin and Satan. The 4th commandment is the longest commandment. I would seem logical to me that the first 4 commandment relating to God - be on the first tablet and the last 6 commandments - be on the second tablet. In fact, looking at the first 4 there are all pretty long - while the last 6 are each fairly short. It seems quite plausible to me that this is why Jesus summarized all 10 into two summary commandments. This is the same logic I see in saying that we must follow God's guidelines in diet if He already stated it clearly in the OT. In love and look forward to your response, Merv |
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4 | Why two tablets ??? | Is 33:22 | DocTrinsograce | 152518 | ||
Dear Merv, If you would like to discuss these things, we probably should seperate them into different threads in subsequent posts. You defined grace as "God's willingness to forgive a repentant sinner and as well to give the opportunity to the sinner to gain forgiveness by repentance and change." This is what we call heterodoxy. Grace has always been defined as "unmerited good will or favor." Your words reflect the theologies of Pelagius, John Cassian, and James Arminius -- however, even they would have disagreed with your definition of grace. Note your use of the qualifying word "repentant." If the sinner must be repentant *before* God grant's His grace, then the grace is merited (cf. John 4:36, Romans 6:23). As Paul puts it, addressing this very question, "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Romans 4:4). Indeed, repentance itself is a gift, as is observed by the believers when they said, "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life" (Acts 11:18b). You even use the word "gain" in your definition, that forgiveness is something that can be earned by specific behavior. Throughout your post you identify meritorious works or attitudes that placed the onus of responsibility on God to salvifically choose Abraham and others. That despite the explicit statement of Paul, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God" (Romans 4:2). You write, "I disagree that the 'Lord Jesus alone saves'." This statement would be considered by most to be heretical and anti-Christian. Certainly it does not agree with Scripture. "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." (Acts 4:12) You continue in this vein with "We cannot be saved unless we are willing to be saved." The Apostle John wrote, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13), disavowing the human will as the trigger by which men are saved. Indeed, Christ said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him" (John 6:44a). Paul encourages our perseverance with the words, "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13). (This latter is called an antinomy.) Regarding your statements on justification, please see my post 151785 for a proper understanding of that theological term. I would challange you to support your definitions of grace, repentance, and faith in Scripture, rather than those taught by Ellen White. Misdefining words can be the root of great error. In Him, Doc "The nature of the Divine goodness is not only to open to those who knock. but also to cause them to knock and ask." --Augustine "Christian! the only thing that makes you differ from the vilest being that pollutes the earth, or from the darkest fiend that gnaws his chains in hell, is the free grace of God!" --Octavious Winslow "Nothing in my hands I bring, Simply to thy cross I cling; Naked, come to thee for dress. Helpless, look to thee for grace: Foul, I to the fountain fly; Wash me Savior, or I die. Rock of Ages, cleft for me, Let me hide myself in thee." --Augustus Toplady "Alas! it is an infinite righteousness that must satisfy for our sins, for it is an infinite God that is offended by us. If ever your sin be pardoned, it is infinite mercy that must pardon it; if ever you be reconciled to God, it is infinite merit must do it; if ever your heart be changed, and your soul renewed, it is infinite power must effect it; and if ever your soul escape hell, and be saved at last, it is infinite grace must save it." --Matthew Mead "...faith, wherever it exists, is in every case, without exception, the gift of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. Never yet did a man believe in Jesus with the faith here intended, except the Holy Spirit led him to do so. He has wrought all our works in us, and our faith too. Faith is too celestial a grace to spring up in human nature till it is renewed: faith is in every believer the gift of God." --Charles Hadon Spurgeon "Faith is a gift from God, so that no one may boast ... The last bastion of pride is the belief that we are the originators of our faith ... This teaching about faith being a gift of God raises many questions. God has answers for all of them, even if we don't. Let us seek to put the teaching into practical biblical use, namely the humbling of our pride and the stimulation of our prayers. In other words, let us pray daily: 'O Lord, thank you for my faith. Sustain it, Strengthen it. Deepen it. Don't let it fail.'" --John Piper |
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5 | Why two tablets ??? | Is 33:22 | swerv | 152596 | ||
Doc: I agree - I will pose some question from my prior note. I will follow-up on your note shortly but do not have time now but wanted to thank you for great respose. But I think we both agree that I am not saving that God's grace does not exist or work prior to a willful choice to accept that grace. My major point on grace is that we must choose to accept the grace and act upon it by repenting. But God's grace is not going to saved an unwilling heart. Also I am not "anti-Christian" in what I said about Jesus. Jesus's act of his death is what atones or "saves" us. But unless we accept this we cannot be saved. This was my point. God could of it he wanted too - make an ark big enough to fit all mankind but He did not ask Noah to do this -- WHY !! God knew the hearts of the wicked and unrepentive people !! Noah spread the work of the flood but he could not save them unless they wanted to get in. I hope we are clear now on my points of grace and Jesus "saves". I will provide the scriptures you wanted shortly and add new threads. Merv |
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6 | Why two tablets ??? | Is 33:22 | DocTrinsograce | 152620 | ||
"Then who can be saved?" Jesus looked at them and said, "With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God." (Mark 10:26-27) He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." (Matt 15:16-17) "Grant what thou commandest and then command what thou wilt." --Saint Agustine "If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." --Martin Luther "The will is not destroyed but rather repaired by grace." --John Calvin "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." --John Owen "Man is nothing: he hath a free will to go to hell, but none to go to heaven, till God worketh in him to will and to do his good pleasure" --George Whitefield "The greatest judgment which God Himself can, in this present life, inflict upon a man is, to leave him in the hand of his own boasted free-will." --Augustus Toplady "Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven." --C.H. Spurgeon "Champions of the will's self-determination [to believe the gospel] preclude themselves by their premises from ariving at any ultimate answer to why we find ourselves disposed to will in the way that we do. Proponents of God's absolute sovereignty over the will, conversely, are prepared to attribute our malign dispositions to sin, and even those, like our better dispositions, ultimately to God." --Donald J. Westblade "Definition of free will: "The power to choose according to one's strongest motive, nature and character." In the unregenerate, to freely choose evil. In the regenerate, to freely choose God and the good." --Byron Curtis |
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7 | Why two tablets ??? | Is 33:22 | swerv | 152786 | ||
Hi Doc: I appreciate the quotes but this is my problem: Many doctrines have been developed within Christianity based on human understanding. I do not say this includes you - but I am going to come to find "truth" by "reasoning" the scriptures. I would be the first to admit that I read interpretations by others but in the course of our discussion I suggest we stick to "reasoning" the controversial scriptures. How do understand 2 Peter 3:9, Ezekiel 18:32, Jeremiah 13:23, Revelation 22:17. These verse are absolutely clear that God will not control our free will to love Him. It is just like our human relationships - a person cannot control our heart. Just like the Pharisees they could outwardly show obedience to God but their hearts were hardened. We have a free choice !!!! God "can" but He will not control our love. Now of course once we do "freely" choose to follow Him then He will lead us to make good choices and avoid sin. In love, Merv |
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8 | Why two tablets ??? | Is 33:22 | DocTrinsograce | 152838 | ||
Dear Merv, Human understanding is what we've got, buddy. God gave it to us. He also gave us the Word, pastors, elders, teachers, and one another. Plus a long rich history of deliberation of the Word of God. If you chuck out human understanding, then why even post any position at all? Don't you assume that I will understand your posts based on my "human reasoning?" You can't use human reasoning to throw out huma reasoning! :-) "Divisions and separations are most objectionable in religion. They weaken the cause of true Christianity ...But before we blame people for them, we must be careful that we lay the blame where it is deserved. False doctrine and heresy are even worse than schism. If people separate themselves from teaching that is positively false and unscriptural, they ought to be praised rather than reproved. In such cases separation is a virtue and not a sin." --J. C. Ryle "Men today do not, perhaps, burn the Bible, nor does the Roman Catholic Church any longer put it on the Index, as it once did. But men destroy it in the form of exegesis: they destroy it in the way they deal with it. They destroy it by not reading it as written in normal, literary form, by ignoring its historical-grammatical exegesis, by changing the Bible's own perspective of itself as propositional revelation in space and time, in history..." --Francis Schaeffer Why should I deliberate with you over the verses you have cited since you have not bothered to deliberate with me over the verses that I have cited? In Him, Doc |
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