Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | journey_me | 146670 | ||
BradK help me to create a question. What covenant did God have with Abraham and was that covenant fulfilled through Jesus? Does that mean that those Jews who died before Christ will not be resurrected, or will not enter the kingdom of heaven? Or are those Jews saved because of God's Covenant? Does that mean that those Jews who still practice the law after Christ is condemned? | ||||||
2 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | EdB | 146671 | ||
“Does that mean that those Jews who died before Christ will not be resurrected, or will not enter the kingdom of heaven?” The righteous that died before Christ besides doing their best to keep the law realized that their righteous was not enough and looked for the Messiah to provide their salvation. When they died they went to Hades (paradise Abraham's bosom Luke 16) and resided there awaiting that Messiah. Jesus upon his death went there and preached the Good News and lead them to heaven Eph 4:8. “Does that mean that those Jews who still practice the law after Christ is condemned?” First Jews can’t practice the law since there is no Temple in which to offer sacrifice. However it is not a matter of practicing the Law or not, but rather rejecting Jesus Christ. The Jews that have rejected Jesus Christ are in fact lost, just as those Jew before Jesus that rejected the need for a Messiah are lost. Man can not save himself he must have a Savior, a Messiah, man must have Jesus to secure salvation. It isn’t a matter of righteous living or keeping of the law. Scripture tells all have sinned and have fallen short. There is only one access to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ. EdB |
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3 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | terrib | 146694 | ||
Dear EdB, Maybe we should revisit Eph 4:1 - 13. Eph 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, Eph 4:2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, Eph 4:3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. Eph 4:4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. Eph 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Eph 4:8 Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." Eph 4:9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.) Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; Eph 4:13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. Eph 4:8 The "Therefore" definity ties it to the preceeding thought, verse 7, the gifts. "The conqueror leading the conquered (death, sin, principalities) and distributing gifts of grace to men. As in verse 11, He wouldn't be giving these gifts to the dead. Eph 4:9,10 talks of his death and resurrection. Eph 4:11 "And He gave some...", some what? He gave some the gifts referenced in verse 7. And what were these gifts? The gifts of the Holy Spirit to be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher for the equipping of the saints for work of service. Paul is preaching on preserving peace and unity and the gifts that make up the different offices of the church. I find no connection with Lazarus and the rich man in Luke. with grace, terrib |
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4 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | EdB | 146703 | ||
Terrib Let us zero in on these verses. Ephesians 4:7-10 (NKJV) 7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. 8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) Paul is talking here about the gifts and where they came from so he uses a quote of Psalm 68:18 that explains Jesus' actions one being the giving of gifts to man. However it also mentions Jesus leading captivity captive. It doesn't say the conquered captive it says captivity captive. They (captivity) were already captives and Jesus took them captive and led them as he ascended into heaven. The Jews believed that when the Old Testament saints died they went to Hades. We have to assume this was revealed external to scripture since we know this was in fact the Jewish belief from both oral and written testimony. Further we see this confirmed by the story Jesus related in Luke 16 which conformed exactly to Jewish teaching on death and confirmed that our spirits are aware and alive even in death. If this wasn’t truth then it could be said Jesus used an accepted but false belief in an illustration, in effect adding credence to a false teaching. I don’t think Jesus would perpetuate a falsehood this way. In effect the spirits of the righteous dead were captive by death and confined in Abraham’s bosom where they awaited their savior. Now we know Jesus upon His death ascends into the lower parts of the earth vs9. 1 Peter 3:19 (NKJV) 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, Tells us Jesus preached to those in prison (captivity). Paul tells us to be absent from the body is present with the Lord 2 Cor. 5:8. Now lets us put together what we know. First the dead both righteous and unrighteous go to Hades ( which is often translated hell) the unrighteous to a hot dry place and the righteous to Abraham’s bosom or paradise. Again we know this from Jewish teaching on the subject of death and the fact Jesus used this as an example in one of His illustrations. We know Jesus ascended to the lower parts of the earth. This is where we are told Hades or hell is. We also know Jesus preached while He was there. And we also know the righteous dead are in the presence of the Lord. We also know Jesus eventually ascended into heaven and presently sits at the right hand of God. Therefore the righteous dead had to get from Hades to heaven and every creditable Bible scholar I know points to Eph 4:8 as fruition of that transference. Here is a brief excerpt from the teaching of J Vernon McGee on the subject "When he ascended up on high" refers to the ascension of Christ. At that time He did two things: (1) He led captivity captive, which refers, I believe, to the redeemed of the Old Testament who went to paradise when they died. Christ took these believers with Him out of paradise into the very presence of God when He ascended. Today when a believer dies, we are not told that he goes to paradise, but rather he is absent from the body and present with the Lord (see 2Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23). (2) When Christ ascended He also gave gifts to men. This means that He conferred gifts upon living believers in the church so that they might witness to the world. In His ascension, Christ not only brought the Old Testament saints into God's presence, but He also, through the Holy Spirit, bestowed His gifts. At the Day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit baptized believers into the body of Christ and then endowed them with certain gifts, enabling them to function as members of the body. The Holy Spirit put each of them in a certain place in the body, and He has been doing the same with each new believer ever since. —J. Vernon McGee's Thru The Bible If room permitted I could supply many more that carry the same understanding. EdB |
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5 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | terrib | 146722 | ||
Hi EdB, Let us remember that this discussion is for Biblical teaching and not to turn it into a thread as long as your arm that ultimaley becomes a debate. You wrote, "and every creditable Bible scholar I know points to Eph 4:8 as fruition of that transference." Matthew Henry: "...Let us set ourselves to think of the ascension of Jesus Christ: that our blessed Redeemer, having risen from the dead, in gone to heaven, where he sits at the right hand of the Majesty on high, which completed the proof of his being the Son of God. As great conquerors, when they rode in their triumphal chariots, used to be attended with the most illustrious of their captives led in chains, and were wont to scatter their largesses and bounty among the soldiers and other spectators of their triumphs, so Christ, when he ascended into heaven, as a triumphant conqueror, led captivity captive. It is a phrase used in the Old Testament to signify a conquest over enemies, especially over such as formerly had led others captive; (see Jdg 5:12). Captivity is here put for captives, and signifies all our spiritual enemies, who brought us into captivity before. He conquered those who had conquered us; such as sin, the devil, and death. Indeed, he triumphed over these on the cross; but the triumph was completed at his ascension, when he became Lord over all, and had the keys of death and hades put into his hands..." - Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible - John Wesley: "...Wherefore he saith - That is, in reference to which God saith by David, Having ascended on high, he led captivity captive - He triumphed over all his enemies, Satan, sin, and death, which had before enslaved all the world: alluding to the custom of ancient conquerors, who led those they had conquered in chains after them. And, as they also used to give donatives to the people, at their return from victory, so he gave gifts to men - Both the ordinary and extraordinary gifts of the Spirit..." - John Wesley's Explanatory Notes - John Gill: "...he led captivity captive; which is expressive of Christ's conquests and triumph over sin, Satan, the world, death, and the grave; and indeed, every spiritual enemy of his and his people, especially the devil, who leads men captive at his will, and is therefore called captivity, and his principalities and powers, whom Christ has spoiled and triumphed over; the allusion is to the public triumphs of the Romans, in which captives were led in chains, and exposed to open view..." - John Gill's Exposition on the Entire Bible - Adam Clarke: "...When he ascended up on high - The whole of this verse, as it stands in the psalm, seems to refer to a military triumph. Take the following paraphrase: Thou hast ascended on high: the conqueror was placed in a very elevated chariot. Thou hast led captivity captive: the conquered kings and generals were usually bound behind the chariot of the conqueror, to grace the triumph. Thou host received gifts for (Paul, given gifts unto) men: at such times the conqueror was wont to throw money among the crowd. Even to the rebellious: those who had fought against him now submit unto him, and share his munificence; for it is the property of a hero to be generous. That the Lord God might dwell among them: the conqueror being now come to fix his abode in the conquered provinces, and subdue the people to his laws. All this the apostle applies to the resurrection, ascension, and glory of Christ..." - Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible - Also you mentioned 1 Peter 3:19: "by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, Tells us Jesus preached to those in prison (captivity)." You left off the rest of the context of that verse i.e. verse 20: "who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. " 'during the construction of the ark' is the key phrase here. These were those at the time before the flood. And the context of this passage is silent about the 'freeing' of the spirits that were in captivity only that He made "proclamation to the spirits"(NASB). It does not say that He brought those spirits to heaven. with grace, terrib |
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6 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | EdB | 146729 | ||
Terrib Notice one thing all of these explanations talk to the Roman (pagan) custom of triumphing over their victims in victory. However the audience Paul is writing is the Ephesians which had little or no real knowledge of what took place in Rome. CNN wasn't there to report. I think a lot of the references you brought up were thinking along those lines rather than Jewish or non-roman lines. Paul wrote to the understanding of his audience, which weren’t Roman but mostly Jewish. While these explanations are certainly credible I really believe Paul meant it as I have explained it. Perhaps I should been a little less dogmatic and a little more exact. Of the credible and current theologians that I view a high number agree this is talking about taking the souls in captivity to heaven. Let us approach this from another angle. Do you think Abraham's bosom is still occupied? If not where is their transference? Do you believe that a saint today upon death goes into the presence of the Lord? If not how do you explain Paul’s teaching in 2 Cor? If you do and you think Abraham’s bosom is occupied do you see a disparity of treatment? What do you believe happens to the soul upon death? EdB |
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7 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | terrib | 146736 | ||
Before my answers, where do you think Abraham is? 1. Do I think Abraham's bosom is still occupied? - Yes. Because it was used as an endearment term that the Jews understood because Abraham was the father of their nation. i.e.(to lay on the bosom of Abraham) Being in Abraham's bosom was-is to be in paradise. Jesus had yet to ascend to heaven at that time in Luke. After His ascension they were all there together in paradise as He told the thief on the cross. 2. Do I believe that a saint today upon death goes into the presence of the Lord? - Yes. with grace, terrib |
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8 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | EdB | 146745 | ||
Terrib I see you you feel Abraham went immediately into heaven and Abraham's bosom talked about in Luke 16 was in fact Heaven. That is an interesting view one that completely ignores Jewish teaching on death, Hades and our spiritual abode. However if that is your view, you are entitled to it. Since your conclusion that the saints are now in heaven is the same as mine. The only difference we have is when they got there. I believe I know the answer which I shared with you, you evidently disagree because you chose to ignore Jewish teachings. Therefore I don't think I have anything else I can offer you on this subject. The thing that is most important is that we will one day be together, know the answer to this for certain and will be in the presence of the Lord. Until then be blessed. EdB |
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9 | Law v Faith. Are Jews Condemened? | Leviticus | terrib | 146747 | ||
What a gracious closing. Thank you EdB. It will be a pleasure to meet you face to face and in the presence of our Lord. with grace, terrib |
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