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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Okay to question faith and the Bible? | 2 Tim 3:16 | parpar | 200330 | ||
Hi WOS. Can you tell me why the last word in verse 30, of Rom 8 is in the past tense? Thank you. parpar. |
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2 | Okay to question faith and the Bible? | 2 Tim 3:16 | DocTrinsograce | 200333 | ||
Hi, parpar... The Westminster divines were pretty clear on this topic, even if the language is a bit antiquated. Although their godly and scholarly achievements are lightyears ahead of anything I hope to attain, I believe I can explain in a bit more detail what they were saying. I have spent quite a bit of time studying their theology -- both in formal and informal educational settings. I'll try to render an answer thatis consistent with an orthodox understanding of Pauline doctrine on this topic. Predestination is English for the Greek word "proorizo" from the root words "pro" meaning prior and "horizo" to decree. The Scripture gives us a logical order of God's decrees. (Note that it is a logical order not necessarily a chronological order. This is because the decrees were made even "before" the creation of time; "before the foundation of the world" -- i.e., before even the infrastructure of space and time.) If you would like to research it for yourself, the orthodox Christian position on the order of these decrees is called Supralapsarianism. It is teleological in nature -- that is, it looks to the end-state that God is seeking to achieve -- and it is derived from the full revelation of Scripture, rather than pieces here and there. The Supralapsarian Scheme looks something like this: 1. Election of some sinful men to salvation in Christ (reprobation of the rest of sinful mankind in order to make known the riches of God's gracious mercy to the elect) 2. Decree to apply Christ's redemptive benefits to the elect sinners 3. Decree to redeem the elect sinners by the cross work of Christ 4. Decree that men should fall 5. Decree to create the world and men Hence, to answer your question: In the five places where Paul uses the word proorizo (Romans 8:29, 30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5, 11) they are all in the past tense. This is because God's election of a people for His own took place before creation. How salvation is worked out in an individual believer's life is part of what is called the ordo salutis (order of salvation). All of this has been pretty well discussed on the forum over the years. Some personal efforts ferreting through the archives, and doing some reading in church history, might serve you well. In Him, Doc |
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3 | Okay to question faith and the Bible? | 2 Tim 3:16 | parpar | 200445 | ||
Hi Doc Thank you for your clarification, which I find most helpful, however, I have a problem with, "1. Election of some sinful men to salvation in Christ (reprobation of the rest of sinful mankind in order to make known the riches of God's gracious mercy to the elect)" as it gives me the impression that God is arbitrary, and therefore despotic in His selection of just who is to be saved, yet we are told in the verses below more that once, that He takes no pleasure in the death of a sinner. Eze 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? Eze 18:27 "Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Eze 18:28 "Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Eze 18:32 "For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies," says the Lord GOD. "Therefore turn and live!" Eze 33:11 "Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?' Your advice on how to reconcile this apparent contradiction will be greatly appreciated. Thank you. parpar. |
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4 | Okay to question faith and the Bible? | 2 Tim 3:16 | DocTrinsograce | 200470 | ||
Dear parpar, I'll spend a tiny bit more time on this topic, although I've already provided sufficient information by which further discovery is possible for those willing to expend the effort. You wrote, "...it gives me the impression that God is arbitrary..." This morning I posted #200463 on John 8:19 to deal with human impressions. Certainly you can identify any number of passages that assure us that God's eternal purposes are anything but arbitrary. Furthermore, I find no Scripture that tells us that He must give an accounting to us. Remember, a doctrine does not stand or fall based on how it strikes us. Sound doctrine is built on the authority of Scripture alone (see post #155648). You continued with your impression, "...therefore [God seems] despotic..." Basing a conclusion on a faulty premise leads only to further error. However, the logic itself is questionable. Suppose for the sake of argument that God were, indeed, arbitrary. Doesn't He have the perfect right, as the creator of all things, to do with His creation precisely as He sees fit? Well, I suppose that's for another discussion. Anyway, I'm always fascinated by the perfect wisdom of the Holy Spirit when people bring up these sorts of arguments regarding the sovereignty of God. Of course, the reaction to the revelation of divine election isn't something unique to our day and age. God anticipated them, and, frankly, if we don't question them precisely in this way, we've missed the point entirely! Thus, see Romans 9:14-24 (ESV) as follows: "What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. "You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, 'Why have you made me like this?' Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" Need I say more than than the Holy Spirit has already said on this topic? You concluded, "Your advice on how to reconcile this apparent contradiction will be greatly appreciated." Work on correcting your fundamental presuppositions, to insure they are properly aligned Scripture's revelation (Hebrews 5:12-13). (The Word was never intended to comfort us by bolstering our assumptions. On the contrary, the truth will always be uncomfortable! Nevertheless, if we truly love the Lord, we will truly love the truth, being unwilling to settle for anything less!) How about this: Instead of searching out Scripture to support the teaching of human moral ability, why not focus on knowing the Lord Himself. Do a Bible word study on choose, chosen, elect, election, etc. Deal with your discomfort directly (Job 38:3). In Him, Doc |
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5 | Okay to question faith and the Bible? | 2 Tim 3:16 | parpar | 200556 | ||
Dear Doc. Thank you very much for your two posts to me on this subject, and also your other two posts to which you drew my attention, I have read all four, and find them most helpful, and informative, in fact I have printed them out for future reference, and to show to others as, and when the occasion arises. Every blessing. parpar. |
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