Results 1 - 6 of 6
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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | The rapture, A comming event, Pg 3. | 1 Thess 4:16 | alanh | 126009 | ||
Where do you read the word "rapture" in the Bible? It is not there nor is the concept there, the "raopture" is not a coming event it is not an event at all.. Read Matthew 24 closely and notice how many times the Lord says "you," this is because those events were to happen in their life time not centuries from then. All of chapter 24 with the exception of verses 36ff have been fulfilled. Notice what Jesus says in verse 34: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished" (Matt. 24:34). Jesus is predicting the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE and with that destruction ends Judaism. There can be no more sacrifice because there is no more priesthood (with the temple destroyed there are no more genealogical records). When one looks to the book of Revelation for information there are 4 things that must be remembered about the prophesies: 1) It is a Revelation (1:1);(2) to seven churches in Asia (1:11); (3) in signs [He sent and sign-i-fied it](1:1); (4) of things that must shor,tly come to pass (1:1; cf. 1:3; 22:6,10). Now with this information in hand we find that Revelation cannot be referring to events in the far future because the apostle plainly states the events will "shortly come to pass." Revelation also has little meaning for any but the 7 churches of Asia to whom they were written. John in the fist chapter of Revelation states that the tribulation was in his own time "I John, your brother and partaker with you in tribulation and kingdom and patience which are in Jesus, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Revelation 1:9) and then in signs and symbols tells of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. It is a message of hope to the Christian of the first century. The Scripture you have referenced 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is referring to the end of the age when Christ returns. The time of judgment. 1 Thessalonians 4:18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words." |
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2 | The rapture, A comming event, Pg 3. | 1 Thess 4:16 | kalos | 126030 | ||
Part 2 Did Jesus Already Return in AD 70? 'If the Rapture "has already taken place", then the resurrection has already taken place. Paul, in 1 Corinthians 15 writes of the day when the final "trumpet" for believers will be blown and mortality will put on immortality. In this passage, he links the Rapture with the resurrection of believers. In other words, when the Rapture takes place, the resurrection occurs. 'Those who insist that the events of Matthew 24 are history and say that the "generation that sees these things" was the generation concurrent with Jesus nearly 2,000 years ago, must of necessity show that the resurrection has also taken place. The only way that is possible is to spiritualize the text by saying that the resurrection was a spiritual one and not a physical one. 'Moderate (or partial) preterist, R.C. Sproul recognizes this when he says, To maintain that these events [the Olivet teaching] were indeed fulfilled in the first century, one must interpret the relevant passages in a way that makes early fulfillment possible. The most severe obstacle [to that] is the absence of any historical record that the rapture of the living and the resurrection of the dead occurred. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 161) 'There are two serious problems with understanding the resurrection as a "spiritual" event. R.C. Sproul says, The first difficulty is that it [Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 15] involves propositions and assertions that can be neither verified nor falsified empirically. ... if one announces or predicts things that will take place in the arena of real history involving physical reality, then empirical verification becomes relevant and crucial...It is unfortunate that the apostle failed to alert the Corinthians-and us, by extension-that he was speaking of a secret, hidden, spiritual resurrection. His language certainly suggests something else, particularly as Paul so clearly conjoins the resurrection of our bodies with the resurrection of Christ's body. The resurrected Christ is the firstfruits of all who will be raised. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 162) 'And what was the resurrected body of Jesus like? First, the tomb was empty. In other words, there was a physical body in it but on the day of His resurrection, it became empty. A body had departed from it. Second, he had a glorified body. It was different from His previous mortal body, but it was the same body. Third, Jesus was visible to the disciples until the time He ascended and was touched by them and ate with them. Christ's resurrected body was a physical body, not a spiritualized one. 'A theological problem with a spiritualized understanding of the resurrection is likewise addressed by R.C. Sproul - If a spiritual body cannot be seen, touched, or handled, is it a body at all? It is one thing to say that our resurrected bodies will be spiritiual bodies, but quite another to imply that our resurrected bodies will be merely spirits. The Bible speaks of spiritual bodies. (R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus, Baker Books, 1998, pg 164) 'A common problem among interpreters of the Bible is that of "shifting gears". If a person approaches his interpretation of the Bible with, for example, a face value hermeneutic, then it is critical that he remain consistent with his approach. However, many often "flip flop" in their interpretation approach to maintain a preconceived understanding of a text. An example of this is the above. Preterists interpret "this generation" in the simple sense as meaning the generation concurrent with Christ and then suddenly "shift gears" and apply a figurative approach to arrive at a spiritualized understanding of the Rapture and the resurrection. That is an inconsistent hermeneutic and leads to error. 'When spiritualization is introduced into one's interpretation, Pandora's box is opened and various meanings can be understood. The only way the integrity of the Author/author's wording and meaning can be preserved is by taking Scripture at face value. Taking Scripture at face value means that the student of Scripture recognizes the difference between what can be called the "simple sense" of a passage and what is understood as a literal understanding. A literal understanding includes the examination of the historical/cultural and lexical/syntactical considerations. It also recognizes symbols and figures of speech and realizes there is a referent for them. For further information on hermeneutical principles, see the "links" section of this website for an explanation. (Did Jesus Already Return in AD 70? By Rev. Bill Lee-Warner) (http://www.solagroup.org/articles/endtimes/et_0003.html) |
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3 | The rapture, A comming event, Pg 3. | 1 Thess 4:16 | Theo-Minor | 126043 | ||
I know this is a forum for discussion, but it is my opinion and recommendation that this topic be dropped. Those that believe it happened already will continue to believe so because of the evidence they see. It is not disputable. Those that believe it has not happened yet will continue to believe so because of the evidence THEY see. It, too, is not disputable. Until and unless someone can interpret the Revelation to its utmost (which has yet to happen), neither side can guarantee they are correct. I see a normal reading of scripture according to dispensational theology as proclaiming the second coming of Christ in the time of the first century because Jesus says it will happen to that generation, the apostles all believed it would happen in their lifetimes, history supports supposed interpretations of the Revelation, and Jesus' coming would be like a thief in the night, or like lightning flashes from east to west (i.e. no one would see the coming itself, only the obvious results of it). In addition, prophetic voice of the Old Testament concurs with a fulfillment of the proposed preterist interpretations. Most particularly Daniel and his ten/eleven horns in correlation with the eleven Roman rulers (as seen from a first century Jewish perspective). Julius, Antony, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, Nero, Galba, Otho, Vitellius. Ten in all ... then an eleventh, Vespasian, that pushes three horns, Galba, Otho, and Vitellius, out of the way. This in accordance with the beast of chapter 13. Seven heads, being seven kings according to chapter 17, one slain, but healed. Then there is an eighth according to chapter 17, which is actually one of the seven, and this one goes forth to ruin. "Ruin" an active verb in the syntax of the sentence. Julius is slain (the head that was wounded to death). So the first head becomes Antony (again from the first century Jewish perspective of rulers over Judea). The second head is Augustus. The third head is Tiberius. The fourth is Caligula. The fifth is Claudius. The sixth is Nero. The seventh, which will only remain for a short while (Chapter 17) is Galba who reigned for only seven months. Then there is an eigth, who is actually one of the seven, this being Vespasian. Galba, Otho, and Vitellius are not considered real emperors by most scholars and historians, and they have almost no place in the histories of Josephus in regard to them being emperors. Next, according to a normal reading of scripture, it should be noted that one of the kings was currently in power as stated in chapter 17. Now, with a proposed date of early 60s AD for the writing of the Revelation (See "Before Jerusalem Fell" by Dr. Kenneth Gentry, who makes a very good and credible arguement for the dating of the book), Nero fits the parameters. "Five have fallen, one is, and one is yet to come, and when he comes, he must remain a short while." At the time of Nero ... Antony fallen (having taken the place of Julius according to chapter 13) is one, Augustus fallen is two, Tiberius fallen is three, Caligula fallen is four, Claudius fallen is five. Nero is. Galba is yet to come, and when he comes, he will remain a short while (seven months). Then, on top of that, Nero Caesar written in Hebrew, counted according to the Hebrew counting system, totals 666 ... and this without any funky arithmetic. Each character has a value. Add them up and you have the number. In addition, textual criticism reveals versions that read 616. As it happens, when the Latin version of Nero Caesar is translated into Hebrew (which drops the end "Nero versus Neron"), the same Hebrew counting system talleys to 616 missing the value of 50 from the missing "N" in his first name. While this most certainly looked like I did what I suggested we should not do, understand that I am really just trying to make a point. The Revelation is a touchy subject. A preterist will not convince a premillenialist and vice versa. This topic is pointless. It is my suggestion that we focus on the things that matter today, in our own lives, and not on things that have either happened already or are yet to come. If it already happened, we are in the kingdom of Christ. We should live accordingly. If it hasn't happened yet, we should live accordingly, else we won't be ready when it does. Got it folks? This topic is a bad one, and WILL lead to strife, because no common ground will be discovered. Theo-Minor |
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4 | The rapture, A comming event, Pg 3. | 1 Thess 4:16 | Morant61 | 126044 | ||
Greetings Theo-Minor! Topics like these only lead to strife if we take ourselves WAY TOO SERIOUSLY! :-) If each view simply presented their evidence and then interacted for a bit (politely), this can be an interesting discussion. It only becomes a problem if we get the attitude that only we can possibly be right - in which case, I usually politely bow out of the discussion. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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5 | The rapture, A comming event, Pg 3. | 1 Thess 4:16 | Theo-Minor | 126047 | ||
I agree with you. It can be interesting. It is also only a problem if we stubbornly cling to our views. This is precisely the point I'm making. Everyone is going to do just that. People have been debating this topic for almost two thousand years. They either believe that the second coming has not happened and spiritualize what does not adhere to this opinion. Else they believe it happened already and assume that which they cannot verify. History and logic support one view. Lack of history and logic support the other. Where is the common ground? What will be accomplished by this topic? I'll participate insomuch as this. Direct written history supports "virtually" all of the Revelation and the Olivet Discourse, barring the second coming itself. As for that, it is my opinion that Jesus told us plainly that we wouldn't know it except by certain signs, like armies surrounding the city, etc. His coming would be like lightning flashing from east to west. It would be like a thief in the night. It would be like the days of Noah; they wouldn't know until the woe was already upon them. It would be like the days of Sodom; they wouldn't know until it was too late. The only warning the Christians had was the abomination of desolation as spoken of by the prophet Daniel. When they saw him standing in the holy place (which could be viewed as either the temple, the inner sanctuary, or merely Jerusalem and the mountain it was built upon; "God's holy mountain") they were to flee. They were not to go back for anything. Historically, the Christians fled to Pella in 66 AD, as according to Eusebius (the father of church history). They are recorded as having believed that "the abomination of desolation" was surrounding the city. There is so much historacity behind a proposed 70 AD completion of prophecy, it would take a large volume book to write it all. I know, because I have them all over my shelves. Seutonius, Tacitus, Thallus, Josephus, Pliny younger, Julius Africanus, Diogenes, Aquilius Niger, etc. It is once again my "opinion" that no person can make an informed decision on the matter until they have thoroughly read the histories. The correlations between prophecy and historical happenings is frightening. This is all I really have to say on the matter. I'm eager to discuss something else, but I'll do the best I can to discuss reasonable questions and consider reasonable suggestions. Theo-Minor |
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6 | The rapture, A comming event, Pg 3. | 1 Thess 4:16 | Morant61 | 126055 | ||
Greetings Theo-Minor! Overall, I agree with you my friend. I usually shy away from end times discussions for much the same reasons. However, if we only discussed things about which there is no disagreement, the forum would be a very silent and lonely place. :-) The keys to discussing controversial topics are to be civil, to actually interact with the other person's views, and to actually stop at some point. ;-) Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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