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Results from: Answered Bible Questions, Answers, Unanswered Bible Questions, Notes Ordered by Verse | ||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Created "in " Christ Jesus | Eph 2:10 | Morant61 | 132095 | ||
Greetings J. Elkins! It is good to hear back from you my friend. I had forgotten about this thread. I have posted so many times on this issue already, so I'll try to limit my comments. :-) You wrote: "The baptismal measure of the HS enabled the Apostles (1) to establish the church (as prophesied, to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles); (2) to confirm with miracles that their words were from God; (3) to maintain the integrity of the church by giving to the early Christians via laying on of their hands 9 miraculous gifts of the HS (1 Cor 12; Acts 8; Acts 19) (nobody got all 9 of the gifts) -- there is no indication anyone else had the power to pass the gifts on -- Stephen had to call the Apostles to do it (Acts 8); and (4) then to write the Bible through inspiration [the perfect (complete) knowledge and prophecy of 1 Cor 13]. The Apostles died. The miraculous abilities went away. Today, we have the HS through the inspired written Word. Paul says to Timothy in II Tim 3:16-17 that the scripture is all we need. He said he had not shunned to declare the whole counsel of God (Acts 20:27)." This is simply speculation my friend. There is not a single verse that limits the Holy Spirit to the Apostles. There is not a single verse that say the gifts would cease with the complete of the canon. In fact, Acts 2:38 specifically says of the gift of the Holy Spirit: "Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.'" Where does this passage say, 'This gift is for the Apostles only until they finish writing the Bible'? ;-) The text is quite clear that it is for 'all whom the Lord our God will call'. You also wrote: "To say the baptism of the HS was for all is to read into scripture something that is not there." Isn't that exactly what Acts 2:38-39 says? Yet, when the Cornelius example doesn't fit your theology, you insist that it had to have happened other than how it actually says in Scripture. The Scripture does not say that Cornelius repented, was baptized, and then received the gift of the Holy Spirit (per your understanding of Acts 2:38). Rather, it says that he received the gift of the Holy Spirit and was then baptized in water. As I pointed out in Scritpure, no one who is not a Christian can receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. So, we can assume all we want about Cornelius, but the text is quite clear my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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2 | Created "in " Christ Jesus | Eph 2:10 | jelkins | 133030 | ||
Post 1 of 3. Tim, couldn’t find 1000 chars to cut. In fact, I added! Mostly scripture quotes, though, which I wanted to leave in for ready reference. So, will reply in three parts. I speak carefully, lest I be found to misrepresent God’s word. I know that, according to James 3:1, those who assume to be teachers are subject to a stricter judgment. Can’t say more about Cornelius than what I’ve already posted recently. Will just have to leave the Forum readers with Acts chapters 10 and 11 and related passages, and let them judge whether or not I’ve spoken the truth. You say, “there is not a single verse that limits the Holy Spirit (HS) to the Apostles.” Even though readers are probably tired of this, I will post these words a 3rd time: In Acts 1:15, the text says there were about 120 disciples in the upper room. In Acts 2, the text does not say all 120 received the baptism of the HS. Tracking the antecedent of the pronouns in Acts 2:1-4 leads to Acts 1:26. The pronouns “them” and “they” refer to Matthias and the eleven, and can be traced even further back to the 11 in Luke 24:49. In John 14, Jesus promises the baptism of the HS to the Apostles at their Passover Feast. Nowhere have I said the HS is just for the Apostles (as you keep insisting), but I have said the baptismal measure of the HS and its attendant power was for them. Acts 8:18 and Acts 19 show the gifts of the HS were passed to others through the laying on of the Apostles hands. “And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money.” “And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them.’ In the New Testament, I see four levels of work done through man by the HS. 1) Jesus had the HS without measure. After His baptism, the Spirit descended on Him (Matt 3:16) . Col 2:9 says, “For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.” “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.” (Acts 10:38) The four gospels are full of descriptions of the HS working through the Christ. 2) The Apostles received the baptism of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2), giving them remembrance of what Jesus had told them, guiding them into all truth, giving them power to preach the word, confirm the word with signs and wonders, establish the church, give spiritual gifts via laying on of their hands, and write scripture. Cornelius and household received the same manifestations of the Spirit, to show the Apostles that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as the Jews, but how could Jesus’ promise to “bring to remembrance and to guide into all truth” have been for Cornelius? The Kingdom came with power to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost. The Kingdom did not come again at the time of Cornelius conversion, but it was extended to Gentiles. (Here I go, talking about Cornelius again!) 3) Members of the 1st century church received miraculous gifts of the HS from the laying on of the Apostles hands. Not sure if everyone received a gift, but text does indicate that no one got all 9 of the gifts (1 Cor 12:7-11.) Reason for these gifts was to “confirm the word” and maintain the integrity of the early church. First Cor 13 says these gifts would go away. 4) All Christians, universally, receive the gift of the HS, promised in Acts 2:38-39, reiterated in Acts 5:32, which says, “…And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the HS whom God has given to those who obey Him.” (Oops. Looks like we have to believe and then obey before we get the Spirit.) |
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3 | Created "in " Christ Jesus | Eph 2:10 | Morant61 | 133034 | ||
Greetings Jelkins! It is always hard to figure out what to cut! ;-) Allow me to respond to your points my friend! a) The 120: There is nothing in the context that mandates that 'they' can only refer to the Apostles. It could also grammatically apply to the 'believers' and 'brothers' of Acts 1:15-16. So, this point really proves nothing. It is simply more speculation. :-) b) Baptimal measure of the Holy Spirit: Where is this phrase found in Scripture? More speculation? 2) Cornelius: Nothing in Acts 10 indicates that the out pouring of the gift of the Holy Spirit was a special circumstance simply designed to convince the Apostles. The text never says that at all. More speculation? 3) Gifts: There is no text that limits the reception of the Holy Spirit or the gifts of the Holy Spirit to those who were 'layed hands' upon by the Apostles. There are certainly instances of this, but no specific restriction. You also wrote: "Reason for these gifts was to “confirm the word” and maintain the integrity of the early church." Yet, there is no Scripture that says this! This is simply more speculation! I'll deal with the ceasation of the gifts in one of your other posts my friend. Your Brother in Christ, Tim Moran |
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